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Maumau fiasco
tycho
#1 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 10:37:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,580
Location: Nairobi
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.
chemirocha
#2 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 11:21:18 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Rift Valley
It is a more dramatic story than the truth of blunders by British PM Winston Churchill, allegations of war crimes and the role of trade unionists and KAU.
Ngalaka
#3 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 11:47:30 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,535
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


That's exactly my view.
In fact my take is that the Mau mau confusion served to delay independence. Only after it was crashed did structured discussion towards independence take shape.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
masukuma
#4 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 11:53:13 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

Kuna watu hapa watakumaliza ukisema hivyo. I have always told people that the Mau Mau thingy was a waste of time, resources and lives. Useless struggle. Other than unknowingly setting up the Hola massacre and subsequent recognition by the british parliament of atrocities being metted on the native population by sir evelyn baring gava - it served no purpose! everything could have been sorted out politically as it was finally done! The former colonial masters were handing out independence like free cakes. there a period of time between June and August 1960 that so many countries got their independence. a waste of lives! but the narrative has been perpetuated about these heros who killed about 70 wazungus and thousands of africans. I feel nothing but pity for them and their misdirected efforts.

But I always suspected this when I was in school... after the mau mau narrative (that tulipigania uhuru) there was a trip to england by Legco to write a constitution and I was wondering... if we beat these people - why were they allowing our heros to come to their homeland? why were our heros going to enemy territory? kumbe... it would all make sense later.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Lolest!
#5 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 12:24:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
I like these Mau Mau debates

There are usually 2 takes on the movement in Kenya:

1) That the freedom fighters were heroes; that they drove out, or contributed the largest part to the eviction of mzungu. Anybody who was opposed to them is a traitor

2)The freedom fighters were not heroes; they engaged in a useless war for land only and lost; they had zero impact on independence

No 1 is used mainly by proponents of Kikuyu and Gema Nationalism and civil society memebers

No 2 Has been used increasingly over time by Kikuyuphobic Kenyans, from academia, media, etc

Now to the reality: Mau Mau never drove out the British like the Americans did in their war for independence. The fight was a guerilla fight against a well organised British Army with additional help from Kings African Rifles

It was a brave fight, no doubt, they tried. But I believe one of their main undoings was lack of weapons . Fighting WWII victors with home made guns was just an issue of faith. Little wonder then they killed very few whites and they never controlled any region or village!

But does that mean it was a useless movement? I increasingly believe it was necessary. An Ian Smith style unilateral declaration of independence was in the plan by LR Briggs with his United Kenya Party.

We must acknowledge that there were 2 types of whites post WWII:
1)The white settler in Kenya who had made this his home and couldn't see himself living elsewhere in less comfort
2)The whites in Britain who were more liberal and couldn't have minded giving us independence

The whites in Kenya always prevailed. After WWII, their numbers increased as white soldiers who had served in the war were rewarded with land in Kenya while the blacks got nothing

They were not going anywhere.

Had the Mau Mau insurgency not started, a UDI would have been declared by the settlers. The armed struggle embarrassed Britain when the atrocities reached the media in the West.

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
masukuma
#6 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 12:45:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
"Officially the number of Mau Mau and other rebels killed was 11,000, including 1,090 convicts hanged by the British administration. Just 32 white settlers were killed in the eight years of emergency.
However, unofficial figures suggest a much larger number were killed in the counter-insurgency campaign.
The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions.
David Anderson, professor of African Politics at Oxford University, says he estimates the death toll in the conflict to have been as high as 25,000."

I think hindsight is 20-20 and with hindsight everyone is a genius. The worst thing is that some settlers still stayed, the ones who left were replaced by black ones and so - nothing really changed. Of course some of the settlers would have never left their nice malaria free highlands (http://www.siliconafrica.com/mosquito-fraternity/)
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
chemirocha
#7 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 1:19:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Rift Valley
Lolest! wrote:


Now to the reality: Mau Mau never drove out the British like the Americans did in their war for independence. The fight was a guerilla fight against a well organised British Army with additional help from Kings African Rifles

It was a brave fight, no doubt, they tried. But I believe one of their main undoings was lack of weapons . Fighting WWII victors with home made guns was just an issue of faith. Little wonder then they killed very few whites and they never controlled any region or village!



What bravery was shown by the Maumau? These fellows were thugs who deliberately targeted alleged Kikuyu collaborators.

You conveniently ignore the Lari massacre, the internal power struggles between Dedan Kimathi and General Mathenge and the hundreds of bystanders who were tortured and murdered. Even their highest profile "victory" against the mzungu was a colonial farmer and his young family, not hardened veterans of WW II.

The hero worship of Maumau is misplaced with the reality of that period.
Lolest!
#8 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 1:35:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
chemirocha wrote:
Lolest! wrote:


Now to the reality: Mau Mau never drove out the British like the Americans did in their war for independence. The fight was a guerilla fight against a well organised British Army with additional help from Kings African Rifles

It was a brave fight, no doubt, they tried. But I believe one of their main undoings was lack of weapons . Fighting WWII victors with home made guns was just an issue of faith. Little wonder then they killed very few whites and they never controlled any region or village!



What bravery was shown by the Maumau? These fellows were thugs who deliberately targeted alleged Kikuyu collaborators.

You conveniently ignore the Lari massacre, the internal power struggles between Dedan Kimathi and General Mathenge and the hundreds of bystanders who were tortured and murdered. Even their highest profile "victory" against the mzungu was a colonial farmer and his young family, not hardened veterans of WW II.

The hero worship of Maumau is misplaced with the reality of that period.

As in most wars, there were many atrocities by both sides. Mau Mau tried to force every person to be on their side; the colonialists did the same. BTW, most people didn't apply to be homeguards, they were forced to.

The other side was accused not just of killing and maiming, but torture, rape, looting

I refuse to call them thugs. They were not. They just fought for what they believed in

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
masukuma
#9 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 1:59:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:


As in most wars, there were many atrocities by both sides. Mau Mau tried to force every person to be on their side; the colonialists did the same. BTW, most people didn't apply to be homeguards, they were forced to.

The other side was accused not just of killing and maiming, but torture, rape, looting

I refuse to call them thugs. They were not. They just fought for what they believed in


it seems like this was their core job
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
kollabo
#10 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 5:30:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2012
Posts: 1,317
Mau mau led by Kimathi Washiuri were terrorists period.

Cutting innocent peoples tongues and opening their bowels ati for the sake of our freedoms.
Jump-steady
#11 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 6:24:49 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/1/2008
Posts: 1,087
chemirocha wrote:
Lolest! wrote:


Now to the reality: Mau Mau never drove out the British like the Americans did in their war for independence. The fight was a guerilla fight against a well organised British Army with additional help from Kings African Rifles

It was a brave fight, no doubt, they tried. But I believe one of their main undoings was lack of weapons . Fighting WWII victors with home made guns was just an issue of faith. Little wonder then they killed very few whites and they never controlled any region or village!



What bravery was shown by the Maumau? These fellows were thugs who deliberately targeted alleged Kikuyu collaborators.

You conveniently ignore the Lari massacre, the internal power struggles between Dedan Kimathi and General Mathenge and the hundreds of bystanders who were tortured and murdered. Even their highest profile "victory" against the mzungu was a colonial farmer and his young family, not hardened veterans of WW II.

The hero worship of Maumau is misplaced with the reality of that period.


d'oh!

Why the sour grapes? Are you a colonial remnant?
masukuma
#12 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 6:43:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
kollabo wrote:
Mau mau led by Kimathi Washiuri were terrorists period.

Cutting innocent peoples tongues and opening their bowels ati for the sake of our freedoms.

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
a matter of dates... of course depending on whose tongues you are cutting and bowels you are opening! if you did that to mzungus it would be terrorism pre-independence and patriotism post-independence if they were mwafrika's then... it's terrorism pre and post independence.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
harrydre
#13 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 6:45:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,079
Location: Kanjo
interesting...
Lolest!
#14 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 8:09:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
kollabo wrote:
Mau mau led by Kimathi Washiuri were terrorists period.

Cutting innocent peoples tongues and opening their bowels ati for the sake of our freedoms.

Upto very recently, South Africa's ANC was listed as a terrorist organisation by the west. Armed struggle against oppressors cannot be all easy soldier for soldier war

Add them to your list of terrorist groups alongside FRELIMO, RENAMO, MPLA,SWAPO, SPLA...
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
chemirocha
#15 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 8:27:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Rift Valley
Jump-steady wrote:


d'oh!

Why the sour grapes? Are you a colonial remnant?


You are reasoning like a colonial chief who concerns himself with petty issues like lost chicken and sheep. Little man, if you have nothing constructive to say then it is better to stay silent.
sitaki.kujulikana
#16 Posted : Friday, March 18, 2016 9:24:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,826
Lolest! wrote:
kollabo wrote:
Mau mau led by Kimathi Washiuri were terrorists period.

Cutting innocent peoples tongues and opening their bowels ati for the sake of our freedoms.

Upto very recently, South Africa's ANC was listed as a terrorist organisation by the west. Armed struggle against oppressors cannot be all easy soldier for soldier war

Add them to your list of terrorist groups alongside FRELIMO, RENAMO, MPLA,SWAPO, SPLA...

Even Madiba was a terrorist
Ngalaka
#17 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 8:11:40 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,535
Ngalaka wrote:
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


That's exactly my view.
In fact my take is that the Mau mau confusion served to delay independence. Only after it was crashed did structured discussion towards independence take shape.


In view of the course of the discussion has taken, I wish to qualify standpoint as follows.

That my view is not absolute, as such I have always endeavored to occupy a middle ground position.

Mindful that as a result of the then mzungu attitude and treatment towards Africans in general, resentment and counter action was always probable.

That though Mau mau movement did not achieve much and in fact bore counter-productive results – largely due to its mode of operation, one can see where the proponents were coming from.

That due to low literacy and exposure levels the mau mau operatives may not have made the right choices in their agitation modus operandi.

That most of those involved generally meant well albeit against great odds

Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
wukan
#18 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:29:08 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,245
Something went wrong with our education system. Honestly some of the comments here are shocking.

1. How do you guys forget that in British imperialism was accompanied by sheer brute force. Winston Churchill remarked in 1908 after a raid on africans that "It looks like a butchery. If the H. of C. gets hold of it, all our plans in E.A.P. will be under a cloud. Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale"

2. British rule was about forceful land grabbing, forced labour and concentration camps called native villages. Until 1950 by statute african employees were to be publicly flogged by the white settles because they thought africans were like children and needed to be treated as such. It took the World war II for africans to understand the colonisers were after all human and they died from wounds.

3.When you call Maumau thugs, what about the British settlers in Hola camp they clubbed africans to death, castrated them and burnt them alive. Between 1952 to 1956 they hang 1,015 africans. There were mass trials of upto 50 men with numbers around their necks and most were led to the gallows in groups of 10 to 20 men together. In the words of Labour MP Barbara Castle the entire system of justice in kenya had "Nazi" attitude towards africans. What wrong with you people?

4.The Mau mau thugs as you call them were in the forest for 4 years without external support before they were defeated. Lincoln bombers dropped 6 million bombs on these defenceless "thugs". Despite all the bombings and being chased around the forest these guys had the time to primitively reverse engineer and make home made guns. That is the only technological innovation attempted by africans in the field of modern war. Have we invented an ugali making machine in the 50+ years of peace?

5. The British were very effective in propaganda that's why the mau mau rebellion morphed from a nationalist uprising into a kikuyu civil war. Caroline Elkins explores this in Imperial Reckoning, Henry Holt and Company, NY, 2005. She says:
Like most wars, Mau Mau was as much about propaganda as it was about reality...Equally powerful as the photographs distributed by the Colonial Office was the language used to describe the Mau Mau...the "white" and "enlightened" forces of British colonialism were in stark contradistinction to the "dark," "evil," "foul," "secretive," and "degraded" Mau Mau. These descriptions spilled over into the Kenyan and British press, where the sensationalist accounts juxtaposed white heroism with African, or Mau Mau terrorism and savagery.

6.You may believe the propaganda just as the The New York Times reported that the Mau Mau movement was a result of the frustrations of a savage people neither mentally nor economically able to adjust itself to the swift pace of civilization but have some decency to believe in your self-determination to write your african story and tell your children that once upon a time the British had brutally ruled kenya for many years and the people of an occupied nation desired independence. There were some who believed in eating and breeding peacefully there were some who wanted political reconciliation and some who believed that blood and terror would send the British away. Teach them that all nations(including Britain) are where they are because of self-determination and it never comes easy. As always history is written by the victors.

7. All in all the uncle Toms won and their grand kids are now keyboard warriors enjoying the fruits of independence calling fellow africans thugs who delayed independence. As always in war those who survive are the real winners.
masukuma
#19 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:42:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
my beef with Mau Mau was not that they engaged in a fairly pointless war - they didn't know better. it's not that they delayed independence - they didn't know better. it's not that their efforts of fighting for independence we pointless - they didn't know better. if you transport yourself to that period of time, limited information, ignorance of geopolitics in understanding that the people who were funding the revbuilding of europe after world war 2 had "national self-determination" as a key objective and it was en vogue to grant countries independence. I don't blame them for not knowing better I BLAME THEM FOR THE WAR THEY MISDIRECTED WAR! THEY KILLED AFRICANS, IT SEEMED LIKE THEIR CORE JOB! THAT IS THUGGISH BEHAVIOUR AND CANNOT BE CONSIDERED NATIONALISTIC AT ANY POINT IN TIME.

On the ugali maker - wewe umeona 'cake maker'? iko machine ya kutengeneza blackforest - perhaps somethings don't need a machine to do well - killing does. that is why we realised stones kill people better than bare hands and clubs kill people better and faster than stones .... at the end of that evolution are nukes. but there is a thread for this somewhere.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
digitek1
#20 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:45:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2010
Posts: 1,797
Location: Kenya
wukan wrote:
Something went wrong with our education system. Honestly some of the comments here are shocking.

1. How do you guys forget that in British imperialism was accompanied by sheer brute force. Winston Churchill remarked in 1908 after a raid on africans that "It looks like a butchery. If the H. of C. gets hold of it, all our plans in E.A.P. will be under a cloud. Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale"

2. British rule was about forceful land grabbing, forced labour and concentration camps called native villages. Until 1950 by statute african employees were to be publicly flogged by the white settles because they thought africans were like children and needed to be treated as such. It took the World war II for africans to understand the colonisers were after all human and they died from wounds.

3.When you call Maumau thugs, what about the British settlers in Hola camp they clubbed africans to death, castrated them and burnt them alive. Between 1952 to 1956 they hang 1,015 africans. There were mass trials of upto 50 men with numbers around their necks and most were led to the gallows in groups of 10 to 20 men together. In the words of Labour MP Barbara Castle the entire system of justice in kenya had "Nazi" attitude towards africans. What wrong with you people?

4.The Mau mau thugs as you call them were in the forest for 4 years without external support before they were defeated. Lincoln bombers dropped 6 million bombs on these defenceless "thugs". Despite all the bombings and being chased around the forest these guys had the time to primitively reverse engineer and make home made guns. That is the only technological innovation attempted by africans in the field of modern war. Have we invented an ugali making machine in the 50+ years of peace?

5. The British were very effective in propaganda that's why the mau mau rebellion morphed from a nationalist uprising into a kikuyu civil war. Caroline Elkins explores this in Imperial Reckoning, Henry Holt and Company, NY, 2005. She says:
Like most wars, Mau Mau was as much about propaganda as it was about reality...Equally powerful as the photographs distributed by the Colonial Office was the language used to describe the Mau Mau...the "white" and "enlightened" forces of British colonialism were in stark contradistinction to the "dark," "evil," "foul," "secretive," and "degraded" Mau Mau. These descriptions spilled over into the Kenyan and British press, where the sensationalist accounts juxtaposed white heroism with African, or Mau Mau terrorism and savagery.

6.You may believe the propaganda just as the The New York Times reported that the Mau Mau movement was a result of the frustrations of a savage people neither mentally nor economically able to adjust itself to the swift pace of civilization but have some decency to believe in your self-determination to write your african story and tell your children that once upon a time the British had brutally ruled kenya for many years and the people of an occupied nation desired independence. There were some who believed in eating and breeding peacefully there were some who wanted political reconciliation and some who believed that blood and terror would send the British away. Teach them that all nations(including Britain) are where they are because of self-determination and it never comes easy. As always history is written by the victors.

7. All in all the uncle Toms won and their grand kids are now keyboard warriors enjoying the fruits of independence calling fellow africans thugs who delayed independence. As always in war those who survive are the real winners.

Applause Applause well said. ....but don't catch feelings keyboard warriors and armchair punditry are wazuas forte Laughing out loudly
I may be wrong..but then I could be right
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