Home SK - Stocks, Property, Investment Chamas - Investment Groups BIZ - Small Business Soko - Market Wazua Life About Wazua
SIGN IN REGISTER
Sunday, Nov 17, 2019
Club SK
To contribute to these and use other features, please register.
LATEST DISCUSSIONS
US First Public Impeachment Hearing [12]
Rumba Music joint/pub [7]
Major Peter mugure the murderer. [3]
How much have you changed? [12]
William Ruto is NOT going to be President in 2022 [975]
SGR Progress thus far [1374]
Kenyan music lacks good producers &, marketers [2]
Uhuru says, ",Let them buy Teslas", [9]
Personal Car Review [14]
Moi, Kibaki, Awori pension is 5X higher than Obama [11]
Alternative investment-Sport pesa [2210]
Government appointments [10]
Billionaires shouldn't exist [26]
President Musalia [5]
Uber planning to roll out matatus [52]
 
Forum Jump








Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In

2 Pages12>
Billionaires shouldn't exist
tycho
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:28:23 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
How are billionaires made? One Mariana Mazzucato believes that billionaires are made by their respective governments. For example Zuckerberg or Apple guys owe it to government based and government sponsored research.

I believe the same applies in our country. Name a billionaire, and there is very likely to be government support behind.

So why should governments create a few very wealthy people who have to do philanthropy - in many cases a form of misanthropy - instead of redistributing wealth to as many people as possible?
AlphDoti
#2 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2019 5:29:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,083
Location: Kenya
Here is how they are made. Listen to Dr. Mumbi explain reality of things:

Fyatu
#3 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:09:05 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,634
Location: Nakuru
tycho wrote:
How are billionaires made? One Mariana Mazzucato believes that billionaires are made by their respective governments. For example Zuckerberg or Apple guys owe it to government based and government sponsored research.

I believe the same applies in our country. Name a billionaire, and there is very likely to be government support behind.

So why should governments create a few very wealthy people who have to do philanthropy - in many cases a form of misanthropy - instead of redistributing wealth to as many people as possible?


In Russia they are called "Oligarchs". I personally have positioned myself to be a Uhuru Kenyatta millionaire going by recent happenings
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
tycho
#4 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2019 6:55:09 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
How are billionaires made? One Mariana Mazzucato believes that billionaires are made by their respective governments. For example Zuckerberg or Apple guys owe it to government based and government sponsored research.

I believe the same applies in our country. Name a billionaire, and there is very likely to be government support behind.

So why should governments create a few very wealthy people who have to do philanthropy - in many cases a form of misanthropy - instead of redistributing wealth to as many people as possible?


In Russia they are called "Oligarchs". I personally have positioned myself to be a Uhuru Kenyatta millionaire going by recent happenings


Hence corruption. The billionaire class appears to be founded on deception by government. In fact the creation of a billionaire elite may be viewed as subversion of democracy. It may be reasonable to say that governments that support the billionaire class are illegitimate.
FRM2011
#5 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2019 11:42:29 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,394
AlphDoti wrote:
Here is how they are made. Listen to Dr. Mumbi explain reality of things:



@alpha, I hope you don't take this lady seriously.

In 2017, our aunts back in the village used to share her videos on family whatsapp groups. She is the one who convinced them that tibim and tialala were satanic gods.

I have a lot of respect for the likes of pauline njoroge. They play dirty but you can see the rewards they are targeting.

Dr mumbi sadly was not playing propaganda politics. She truly believed the crap she was spewing. A real psycho.
AlphDoti
#6 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2019 12:54:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,083
Location: Kenya
FRM2011 wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Here is how they are made. Listen to Dr. Mumbi explain reality of things:


@alpha, I hope you don't take this lady seriously.

In 2017, our aunts back in the village used to share her videos on family whatsapp groups. She is the one who convinced them that tibim and tialala were satanic gods.

I have a lot of respect for the likes of pauline njoroge. They play dirty but you can see the rewards they are targeting.

Dr mumbi sadly was not playing propaganda politics. She truly believed the crap she was spewing. A real psycho.

I have watched only of her videos: this one alone.
2012
#7 Posted : Saturday, November 09, 2019 1:18:32 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,559
Location: Nairobi
I don't know about this but I think most billionaires are hard working individuals who own companies that meet a need and they keep innovating. It's only in corrupt countries like Kenya where you have to be in government to be a billionaire through stealing and blood money.

Billionaires is a good thing. They offer a point of inspiration for many people as no human should be limited.

Stand for something or you will fall for anything. Today's mighty oak is yesterday's nut that held its ground. Rosa Parks
tycho
#8 Posted : Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:22:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
2012 wrote:
I don't know about this but I think most billionaires are hard working individuals who own companies that meet a need and they keep innovating. It's only in corrupt countries like Kenya where you have to be in government to be a billionaire through stealing and blood money.

Billionaires is a good thing. They offer a point of inspiration for many people as no human should be limited.


The key idea here is not whether the billionaire has stolen or not. Instead, we are looking at how governments have a tendency for creating billionaires, or favoring a certain class. This normally happens in cases where some people have closer proximity to power than others. For example, top universities in America tend to get the spin offs of government funded research. This fact shows why there might be such a wide disparity in the distribution of wealth. Countries designed to be at the periphery like Kenya will tend to have fewer billionaires and will tend to non-technology areas.

Billionaires in countries that are in the core of our international system tend to new technologies, but we have reason to question the veracity of their privilege, given that these countries have millions of citizens. What prevents active attempts by government to ensure that these millions for example, have viable credit ratings? Take the recent financial crises as an example of how it is inconvenient for us all to have people who have no reliable income flows.

Again, we have no way for justifying how the billionaires use their money. We must swallow the narrative that Bill Gates is in fact doing the right thing by seeking malaria interventions. But against what do we contrast this idea?

Theories and assumptions in support of the billionaires are suspect because they are beholden to one school of view that is reinforced by interested parties. We may be looking at economics as a pseudo-science.
tycho
#9 Posted : Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:40:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu
#10 Posted : Monday, November 11, 2019 12:55:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,634
Location: Nakuru
tycho wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
How are billionaires made? One Mariana Mazzucato believes that billionaires are made by their respective governments. For example Zuckerberg or Apple guys owe it to government based and government sponsored research.

I believe the same applies in our country. Name a billionaire, and there is very likely to be government support behind.

So why should governments create a few very wealthy people who have to do philanthropy - in many cases a form of misanthropy - instead of redistributing wealth to as many people as possible?


In Russia they are called "Oligarchs". I personally have positioned myself to be a Uhuru Kenyatta millionaire going by recent happenings


Hence corruption. The billionaire class appears to be founded on deception by government. In fact the creation of a billionaire elite may be viewed as subversion of democracy. It may be reasonable to say that governments that support the billionaire class are illegitimate.


Not necessarily so. Sometimes "outsiders" can follow the money quietly and end up being millionaires if not billionaires.In the Sociology of science parlance, it is called Matthews Effect.

It might be difficult for ordinary folks like you and me to join the billionaires boys club, however, by merely observing the moves the billionaires are taking can make you a fortune. I said it here before that we shall soon be reading about how James Mwangi,Jimnah Mbaru,James Mworia,the Ndegwa brothers, the current first family, Baloobhai Patel and many more billionaires have made fortunes once the artificial and highly rigged economic hard times abruptly come to an end.

The questions all Wazuans aspiring to be millionaires should be asking themselves is:

Where is James Mwangi heavily invested, or what investment moves is James Ndegwa making today(November 2019)?

Once you have found out that Baloobhai Patel has increased his stake in a Kenyatta/Ndegwa majority owned bank which also curiously controls Mshwari and Stawi mobile apps and has lent heavily to GoK at 13% for the longterm, then you should do whatever it takes to purchase as much stake as you can in this bank and wait for the day business daily and other newspapers will start gossiping about how President Uhuru brother has made billions of paper wealth by a fractional increase in share price.

If Allah grants us life(Inshallah) we shall all be here
relishing missed opportunities. Mark Twain is famed of stating that "history does not repeat itself but it rhymes".
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
tycho
#11 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:53:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
@Fyatu, in this case, the Mathew effect is such that since those who have much tend to get more, then it is better to emulate and follow them so that we can also get a piece of what they have.

The critical factor here is that if there exists a law(s) that would make it sensible for us to emulate the leading pack. Such that, as long as there is a billionaire B then he/she must drop something of marginal difference M that is nontrivial even in the macroeconomic sense.

In this case, we could start thinking of proxemics, network value, insider information, exclusive clubs and the like. These are the very same variables that create and perhaps constitute corruption.

Besides, this is only a version of the trickle-down theory. This is the theory that is under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that it is untenable. The trickle-down is far too slow and of insignificant effect, that we should try to find other ideas to justify blind capitalism.
tycho
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:34:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Aghion and Bolton (1997) argue thus in the context of an endogenous system of interest rate determination:

Quote:
The main economic insight which comes out of our analysis in this paper is that, even though wealth does trickle-down from the rich to the poor and leads to a unique steady-state distribution of wealth under sufficiently high rates of capital accumulation,
there is still room for wealth redistribution policies to improve the long-run efficiency of the economy. In other words, the trickle-down mechanism is not sufficient to eventually reach an efficient distribution of resources, even in the best possible scenario. The reason why redistribution improves production efficiency is that with redistribution the poor need to borrow less to invest and therefore their incentives to maximize profits are distorted less. Thus, redistribution improves the efficiency of the economy because it brings about greater equality of opportunity and because it accelerates the trickle-down process.


L. Randall Wray (2004) on the other hand thinks that:

Quote:
Perhaps the most important of Basil Moore’s contributions to economic theory is the recognition that the money supply should be treated as an endogenous variable while the interest rate should be taken to be exogenous.


Are there countries or population clusters that have barriers regarding to capital having a limited range of options to choose from, even when it can be shown that there are other possible choices that are not part of the decision model in question? In simple terms, one can invest in what one can't sell due to the politics of existing markets. If true, then the above arguments can only hold for the global elites but isn't a general rule.

The second quote is in conflict with the first. But the former was written after the latter. Meaning that up to now the matter of trickle-down has not set sail.
tycho
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:47:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Prof. (Dr.) Francis Arackal in 'Relevance and Application of Trickle-down Theory of Development in the Context of India' states that:

Quote:
The Trickle-down Theory proposes that as a country develops, there is a natural cycle of economic inequality driven by market forces which at first increases inequality, and then decreases it after a certain average income is attained. For, wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor. According to the Theory when the rate of capital accumulation is sufficiently high, the economy converges to a unique invariant wealth distribution. In other words the process of capital accumulation initially has the effect of widening inequalities but in later stages it reduces them. Further the theory says that the process of industrialization, democratization and the rise of the welfare state allow for the trickle-down of the benefits from rapid growth, and increase the per capita income. But according to a recent research done by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) this is not true. In fact, researchers found that when the top earners in society make more money, it actually slows down economic growth. On the other hand, when poorer people earn more, society as a whole benefits.


Many of us are in fact exploited by the billionaire class using falsehoods that prevent any meaningful work, and living. There is a gross injustice happening that has been sanitized using theory, and the forces of envy that make the average wazuan crave for billions at the expense of the entire economic system.
Obi 1 Kanobi
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 2:37:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,012
Sorry @Tycho,

Billionaires are self made. Here is a simple experiment that may never be done but which I am sure would prove this beyond reasonable doubt.

If the world resources were redistributed equally among everyone in the world (assuming peoples personal abilities remain constant) then the billionaires would quickly accumulate billions once again while the majority of the world population would slowly but surely quickly consume their new found wealth and regress back to the comforts of the poverty they are used to.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
2012
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 2:43:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,559
Location: Nairobi
In my opinion, billionaires should exist. There should be no limit set on human achievement. Granted, there are thieves and rogue elements in society but these people exist through all segments, the poor steal each others chicken while the reach rob each other of tenders, business and our taxes.
But I think the greatest achievers should be well rewarded else we will kill the concept of human endeavor for people who have the biggest dreams to aspire to, the likes of John D. Rockefeller and many others today.

Stand for something or you will fall for anything. Today's mighty oak is yesterday's nut that held its ground. Rosa Parks
Fyatu
#16 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 6:59:05 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,634
Location: Nakuru
tycho wrote:
@Fyatu, in this case, the Mathew effect is such that since those who have much tend to get more, then it is better to emulate and follow them so that we can also get a piece of what they have.

The critical factor here is that if there exists a law(s) that would make it sensible for us to emulate the leading pack. Such that, as long as there is a billionaire B then he/she must drop something of marginal difference M that is nontrivial even in the macroeconomic sense.

In this case, we could start thinking of proxemics, network value, insider information, exclusive clubs and the like. These are the very same variables that create and perhaps constitute corruption.

Besides, this is only a version of the trickle-down theory. This is the theory that is under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that it is untenable. The trickle-down is far too slow and of insignificant effect, that we should try to find other ideas to justify blind capitalism.



It is a fact that we live in a capitalist world. What you are proposing is a pure socialist system which is not practical in the current world settings where money = power. We have witnessed transition from communism to capitalism in erstwhile communist states like U.S.S.R and China hinting that Capitalism is here to stay.

Capitalist powers like the USA and Western Europe and lately China and Russia will not allow democratic socialism to take root in the world. You can call it corruption but if capitalism collapsed today it would be Armageddon.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
tycho
#17 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2019 1:52:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Sorry @Tycho,

Billionaires are self made. Here is a simple experiment that may never be done but which I am sure would prove this beyond reasonable doubt.

If the world resources were redistributed equally among everyone in the world (assuming peoples personal abilities remain constant) then the billionaires would quickly accumulate billions once again while the majority of the world population would slowly but surely quickly consume their new found wealth and regress back to the comforts of the poverty they are used to.


@Obi, experiment design is determined by theories we hold dear. In this case we see that a theory you hold dear is that 'billionaires' are different from the rest of the population through certain qualities. Which unique qualities are these?

Did you notice that the experiment set out to prove that billionaires are billionaires? Looks like a logical fallacy to me.
tycho
#18 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2019 1:59:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
2012 wrote:
In my opinion, billionaires should exist. There should be no limit set on human achievement. Granted, there are thieves and rogue elements in society but these people exist through all segments, the poor steal each others chicken while the reach rob each other of tenders, business and our taxes.
But I think the greatest achievers should be well rewarded else we will kill the concept of human endeavor for people who have the biggest dreams to aspire to, the likes of John D. Rockefeller and many others today.


There are always ethical, social and even temporal limits to human achievement. In this case let's consider the ethical limits. It is wrong for governments to favor a few people at the expense of the many who are deceived that they are the powers behind government.

Consider contexts where children are the pickpockets of choice, why do we not say that we shouldn't limit their expertise?
tycho
#19 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2019 2:03:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
@Fyatu, in this case, the Mathew effect is such that since those who have much tend to get more, then it is better to emulate and follow them so that we can also get a piece of what they have.

The critical factor here is that if there exists a law(s) that would make it sensible for us to emulate the leading pack. Such that, as long as there is a billionaire B then he/she must drop something of marginal difference M that is nontrivial even in the macroeconomic sense.

In this case, we could start thinking of proxemics, network value, insider information, exclusive clubs and the like. These are the very same variables that create and perhaps constitute corruption.

Besides, this is only a version of the trickle-down theory. This is the theory that is under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that it is untenable. The trickle-down is far too slow and of insignificant effect, that we should try to find other ideas to justify blind capitalism.



It is a fact that we live in a capitalist world. What you are proposing is a pure socialist system which is not practical in the current world settings where money = power. We have witnessed transition from communism to capitalism in erstwhile communist states like U.S.S.R and China hinting that Capitalism is here to stay.

Capitalist powers like the USA and Western Europe and lately China and Russia will not allow democratic socialism to take root in the world. You can call it corruption but if capitalism collapsed today it would be Armageddon.


'Facts' are things which can be proven to be either True or False. We know that we don't live in a purely capitalist system. It is evident that the Bretton woods institutions were and are socialist in nature. A purely capitalist system can also not exist.

What I am calling for is a redistribution of elements of this mixed economy to the rest of the citizens.
tycho
#20 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2019 5:32:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,545
Location: Nairobi
The sad thing is that we may have forgotten that all these billions happen in a political context that assumes equality of rights and sovereignty, and that is guided by 'the promise of politics' where diversity of interests finds a fair division of costs and benefits.

To state that I insist on strictly equal division of resources, is to misunderstand my position. My idea is more on fair division given truly autonomous choice. And by autonomous choice I mean all calculated options that a human may take to optimize between the unconscious and the conscious.

I am speaking as a humanist.

https://www.theguardian....re-capitalists-communism
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Home | . .. Investor | .. . Groups | .. . SME | . . . Market | .. . Club SK | . ..... About Wazua | . .. Search | . ..Sitemap | . ..Support | . ..Disclaimer | . ..Privacy Policy | . ..Terms of Use | . .. Contact Us
Copyright © 2019 Wazua.co.ke. All Rights Reserved.