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Other religious discourse
Mukiri
#661 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 10:59:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,090
FRM2011 wrote:

I beg to divert the debate on this thread slightly.

The biggest threat to theism in Kenya will not come from the AIK but the church itself.

We have always laughed at the outright frauds masquerading as church leaders. Kanyari, Helicopter and the like. But the rot goes all the way up to the mainstream churches. 3 examples below.

Two weeks ago, we were treated to the sad tragedy of top catholic leadership taking ownership of the St. Mary's hospital in Langata. They evicted the founder priest, a white father who brought in the donors who put up the hospital. At that point it sounded okay because they had a court order. But now it turns out that the court order they used that day was forged.

In my church, PCEA, the moderator is the church boss, the equivalent of a CEO. The immediate former moderator is a guy called Rev Gathanju. He is in court for theft of 40M from the church. We are not talking corruption or inflated bills or tender-preneurship, they simply transferred church money to his account. And he refused to refund even after very many requests. That's how the current church leadership decided to have him arrested. Most church properties have been attached by auctioneers. The university was a cash cow for the church leaders and currently is in a mess.

At the ACK, there was a sickening tragi-comedy in Nyeri diocese where the church leadership fired two pastors on accusations of homosexuality. The matter went to court and it later turned out, the two pastors were being targeted by the bishop for refusing to toe his line and let him eat quietly. The alleged victims later recanted and confirmed they were induced by the bishop to falsely accuse the two pastors. The drama does not end there. The high court ruled that the two pastors should be reinstated and compensated. But the top church leadership decided to side with the conniving bishop and went to the court of appeal. One wonders what is driving their fight. Because its definitely not the moral standpoint. Its purely self-preservation.

Two decades ago, it was possible for the church to project an image as the paragon of virtue. They could get away with many things. But not now, not in the information age.

It was worse in the days of the old. From the Pharisees and Sadducees, the murderous Roman Catholic church to the eve of Protestant movements. No man or woman is exempt. Maybe our very own Wazua Kadhi... I digresssmile

Jesus Christ came for '... whosoever believes..', not which community soever believes, or which family soever believes. Ni wewe na Mungu wako! Human being s are inherently evil, the only thing separating them from a crime being opportunity. You were told, leave the speck in the other's eye for while you are busy castigating and passing judgement, your view is obstructed by the log in yours

Philippians 4:11-13
AlphDoti
#662 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 12:22:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Mukiri wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:

I beg to divert the debate on this thread slightly.

The biggest threat to theism in Kenya will not come from the AIK but the church itself.

We have always laughed at the outright frauds masquerading as church leaders. Kanyari, Helicopter and the like. But the rot goes all the way up to the mainstream churches. 3 examples below.

Two weeks ago, we were treated to the sad tragedy of top catholic leadership taking ownership of the St. Mary's hospital in Langata. They evicted the founder priest, a white father who brought in the donors who put up the hospital. At that point it sounded okay because they had a court order. But now it turns out that the court order they used that day was forged.

In my church, PCEA, the moderator is the church boss, the equivalent of a CEO. The immediate former moderator is a guy called Rev Gathanju. He is in court for theft of 40M from the church. We are not talking corruption or inflated bills or tender-preneurship, they simply transferred church money to his account. And he refused to refund even after very many requests. That's how the current church leadership decided to have him arrested. Most church properties have been attached by auctioneers. The university was a cash cow for the church leaders and currently is in a mess.

At the ACK, there was a sickening tragi-comedy in Nyeri diocese where the church leadership fired two pastors on accusations of homosexuality. The matter went to court and it later turned out, the two pastors were being targeted by the bishop for refusing to toe his line and let him eat quietly. The alleged victims later recanted and confirmed they were induced by the bishop to falsely accuse the two pastors. The drama does not end there. The high court ruled that the two pastors should be reinstated and compensated. But the top church leadership decided to side with the conniving bishop and went to the court of appeal. One wonders what is driving their fight. Because its definitely not the moral standpoint. Its purely self-preservation.

Two decades ago, it was possible for the church to project an image as the paragon of virtue. They could get away with many things. But not now, not in the information age.

It was worse in the days of the old. From the Pharisees and Sadducees, the murderous Roman Catholic church to the eve of Protestant movements. No man or woman is exempt. Maybe our very own Wazua Kadhi... I digresssmile

Jesus Christ came for '... whosoever believes..', not which community soever believes, or which family soever believes. Ni wewe na Mungu wako! Human being s are inherently evil, the only thing separating them from a crime being opportunity. You were told, leave the speck in the other's eye for while you are busy castigating and passing judgement, your view is obstructed by the log in yours

@mukiri, you are back, you didn't learn your lessons, right?

Did you say Jesus (a.s) came to die for your sins? Maybe he should die every day forever to save these men and women from these sins they still commit all the time. If he hadn't died to save you what would have happened?

Last time @mukiri, you were selling s*x toys, and actually marketed them here in Wazua... I hope Jesus has died again and saved you from that... Are you still having quickies during Keshas?
Mukiri
#663 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 1:23:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,090
@Alph .. I now pick my battles wisely. Wewe baki hapo tusmile

Philippians 4:11-13
AlphDoti
#664 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 2:30:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Mukiri wrote:
@Alph .. I now pick my battles wisely. Wewe baki hapo tusmile

Usirudi tena na mchezo... okoka uokoke ya ukweli... damu ya Yesu isienda hasara!


Njung'e wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
McReggae wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
Laughing out loudly Boss, hii sasa ni uchokozi!

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Kwani uliacha hio biachara???

Explosives found in toys!!!Sad

Pastor Kachabali-Swipe

Lolest!
#665 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 2:56:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 10,814
Location: Kianjokoma
AlphDoti wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:

I beg to divert the debate on this thread slightly.

The biggest threat to theism in Kenya will not come from the AIK but the church itself.

We have always laughed at the outright frauds masquerading as church leaders. Kanyari, Helicopter and the like. But the rot goes all the way up to the mainstream churches. 3 examples below.

Two weeks ago, we were treated to the sad tragedy of top catholic leadership taking ownership of the St. Mary's hospital in Langata. They evicted the founder priest, a white father who brought in the donors who put up the hospital. At that point it sounded okay because they had a court order. But now it turns out that the court order they used that day was forged.

In my church, PCEA, the moderator is the church boss, the equivalent of a CEO. The immediate former moderator is a guy called Rev Gathanju. He is in court for theft of 40M from the church. We are not talking corruption or inflated bills or tender-preneurship, they simply transferred church money to his account. And he refused to refund even after very many requests. That's how the current church leadership decided to have him arrested. Most church properties have been attached by auctioneers. The university was a cash cow for the church leaders and currently is in a mess.

At the ACK, there was a sickening tragi-comedy in Nyeri diocese where the church leadership fired two pastors on accusations of homosexuality. The matter went to court and it later turned out, the two pastors were being targeted by the bishop for refusing to toe his line and let him eat quietly. The alleged victims later recanted and confirmed they were induced by the bishop to falsely accuse the two pastors. The drama does not end there. The high court ruled that the two pastors should be reinstated and compensated. But the top church leadership decided to side with the conniving bishop and went to the court of appeal. One wonders what is driving their fight. Because its definitely not the moral standpoint. Its purely self-preservation.

Two decades ago, it was possible for the church to project an image as the paragon of virtue. They could get away with many things. But not now, not in the information age.

It was worse in the days of the old. From the Pharisees and Sadducees, the murderous Roman Catholic church to the eve of Protestant movements. No man or woman is exempt. Maybe our very own Wazua Kadhi... I digresssmile

Jesus Christ came for '... whosoever believes..', not which community soever believes, or which family soever believes. Ni wewe na Mungu wako! Human being s are inherently evil, the only thing separating them from a crime being opportunity. You were told, leave the speck in the other's eye for while you are busy castigating and passing judgement, your view is obstructed by the log in yours

@mukiri, you are back, you didn't learn your lessons, right?

Did you say Jesus (a.s) came to die for your sins? Maybe he should die every day forever to save these men and women from these sins they still commit all the time. If he hadn't died to save you what would have happened?

Last time @mukiri, you were selling s*x toys, and actually marketed them here in Wazua... I hope Jesus has died again and saved you from that... Are you still having quickies during Keshas?

Wachana na ad hominen and stick to issues!

Or should we keep discussing your blatant tribalism and support for Islamic terror?
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
AlphDoti
#666 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 5:33:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Even you @lonest, we've gone down that road before. I've handled you before. I'm glad you run out of myths and propaganda based on hate and ignorance.

So bro what is your comment on the topic at hand, this is the correct thread... smile
Lolest!
#667 Posted : Friday, January 19, 2018 6:51:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 10,814
Location: Kianjokoma
AlphDoti wrote:
Even you @lonest, we've gone down that road before. I've handled you before. I'm glad you run out of myths and propaganda based on hate and ignorance.

So bro what is your comment on the topic at hand, this is the correct thread... smile

Hizi jokes ziwache 2017 kaka

Muhammad a prophet of the Almighty God? Nooooo!! Not that fellow who made a religion to fit his weaknesses! Yaani when you lust upon your daughter-in-law you receive a 'revelation' allowing you to chanhe rules so you can marry her.

I think 2018 will be interesting...
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
AlphDoti
#668 Posted : Saturday, January 20, 2018 6:39:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Lolest! wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Even you @lonest, we've gone down that road before. I've handled you before. I'm glad you run out of myths and propaganda based on hate and ignorance.

So bro what is your comment on the topic at hand, this is the correct thread... smile

Hizi jokes ziwache 2017 kaka

Muhammad a prophet of the Almighty God? Nooooo!! Not that fellow who made a religion to fit his weaknesses! Yaani when you lust upon your daughter-in-law you receive a 'revelation' allowing you to chanhe rules so you can marry her.

I think 2018 will be interesting...

Now you're recycling propaganda which me and you already handled in 2012? Is this your diversion tactic from current topic on today's pastors?
Lolest!
#669 Posted : Saturday, January 20, 2018 8:24:52 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 10,814
Location: Kianjokoma
AlphDoti wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Even you @lonest, we've gone down that road before. I've handled you before. I'm glad you run out of myths and propaganda based on hate and ignorance.

So bro what is your comment on the topic at hand, this is the correct thread... smile

Hizi jokes ziwache 2017 kaka

Muhammad a prophet of the Almighty God? Nooooo!! Not that fellow who made a religion to fit his weaknesses! Yaani when you lust upon your daughter-in-law you receive a 'revelation' allowing you to chanhe rules so you can marry her.

I think 2018 will be interesting...

Now you're recycling propaganda which me and you already handled in 2012? Is this your diversion tactic from current topic on today's pastors?

Muhammad is a con, a pervert. Period!!!

On pastors, I commented kitambo. You just refusing to see it
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
AlphDoti
#670 Posted : Tuesday, January 23, 2018 1:41:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Lolest! wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:

I beg to divert the debate on this thread slightly.

The biggest threat to theism in Kenya will not come from the AIK but the church itself.

We have always laughed at the outright frauds masquerading as church leaders. Kanyari, Helicopter and the like. But the rot goes all the way up to the mainstream churches. 3 examples below.

Two weeks ago, we were treated to the sad tragedy of top catholic leadership taking ownership of the St. Mary's hospital in Langata. They evicted the founder priest, a white father who brought in the donors who put up the hospital. At that point it sounded okay because they had a court order. But now it turns out that the court order they used that day was forged.

In my church, PCEA, the moderator is the church boss, the equivalent of a CEO. The immediate former moderator is a guy called Rev Gathanju. He is in court for theft of 40M from the church. We are not talking corruption or inflated bills or tender-preneurship, they simply transferred church money to his account. And he refused to refund even after very many requests. That's how the current church leadership decided to have him arrested. Most church properties have been attached by auctioneers. The university was a cash cow for the church leaders and currently is in a mess.

At the ACK, there was a sickening tragi-comedy in Nyeri diocese where the church leadership fired two pastors on accusations of homosexuality. The matter went to court and it later turned out, the two pastors were being targeted by the bishop for refusing to toe his line and let him eat quietly. The alleged victims later recanted and confirmed they were induced by the bishop to falsely accuse the two pastors. The drama does not end there. The high court ruled that the two pastors should be reinstated and compensated. But the top church leadership decided to side with the conniving bishop and went to the court of appeal. One wonders what is driving their fight. Because its definitely not the moral standpoint. Its purely self-preservation.

Two decades ago, it was possible for the church to project an image as the paragon of virtue. They could get away with many things. But not now, not in the information age.

Wewe atheist kumbuka pia Yesu alifanya kazi na Judas na huyo Judas alikuwa mweka hazina ambaye aliiba fedha hizo

Quote: "...yet unajionea the most malaya of Sponyo being made a church elder? Wacheni upuzi. The Kenyan church is fake. There is no particular gain from going to church, save for your money being "eaten" by old wazee's with their fictitious projects they keep changishaing for."

Is this true @lonest?
AlphDoti
#671 Posted : Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:31:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...
tycho
#672 Posted : Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:46:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 7,420
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...


Assuming what you're saying has reasonable degree of truth then we should also note that there are things called 'Church services'.

So you'd still be fooling yourself by inferring that churches and services are exclusive of each other.

AlphDoti
#673 Posted : Friday, January 26, 2018 12:00:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...

Assuming what you're saying has reasonable degree of truth then we should also note that there are things called 'Church services'.

So you'd still be fooling yourself by inferring that churches and services are exclusive of each other.

I'm talking about recreational halls... They used to be place of the creative economy activities... sports, art, cultural events, conferences etc

This was part of town planning... but we have lost it and most of the halls are currently being occupied by churches...

The services used to keep the youth engaged...
tycho
#674 Posted : Saturday, January 27, 2018 11:12:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 7,420
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...

Assuming what you're saying has reasonable degree of truth then we should also note that there are things called 'Church services'.

So you'd still be fooling yourself by inferring that churches and services are exclusive of each other.

I'm talking about recreational halls... They used to be place of the creative economy activities... sports, art, cultural events, conferences etc

This was part of town planning... but we have lost it and most of the halls are currently being occupied by churches...

The services used to keep the youth engaged...


1. The halls were not exclusive for youth

2.Programs that used to cater for the youth from govt and corporate organizations dwindled

3. The youth activities became unsustainable

4. Other users like the churches gained prominence.

That is the impression of Churches snuffed out youth activities in community halls is unsustainable. It's like blind blame.
Mukiri
#675 Posted : Saturday, January 27, 2018 11:57:07 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,090
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...

Assuming what you're saying has reasonable degree of truth then we should also note that there are things called 'Church services'.

So you'd still be fooling yourself by inferring that churches and services are exclusive of each other.

I'm talking about recreational halls... They used to be place of the creative economy activities... sports, art, cultural events, conferences etc

This was part of town planning... but we have lost it and most of the halls are currently being occupied by churches...

The services used to keep the youth engaged...


1. The halls were not exclusive for youth

2.Programs that used to cater for the youth from govt and corporate organizations dwindled

3. The youth activities became unsustainable

4. Other users like the churches gained prominence.

That is the impression of Churches snuffed out youth activities in community halls is unsustainable. It's like blind blame.

Anything to sell the hate/blame narrative. Makes me wonder does painting an opposing force bad, automatically make you good? Or is the driving force a heavenly reward? Like the virgins

Philippians 4:11-13
AlphDoti
#676 Posted : Saturday, January 27, 2018 11:13:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Mukiri wrote:
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Estates had playgrounds, halls and other spaces

All these are currently occupied by churches...

Authorities have failed to provide services and the spaces have been given to churches... you may wonder why there are more churches than services...

Assuming what you're saying has reasonable degree of truth then we should also note that there are things called 'Church services'.

So you'd still be fooling yourself by inferring that churches and services are exclusive of each other.

I'm talking about recreational halls... They used to be place of the creative economy activities... sports, art, cultural events, conferences etc

This was part of town planning... but we have lost it and most of the halls are currently being occupied by churches...

The services used to keep the youth engaged...

1. The halls were not exclusive for youth

2.Programs that used to cater for the youth from govt and corporate organizations dwindled

3. The youth activities became unsustainable

4. Other users like the churches gained prominence.

That is the impression of Churches snuffed out youth activities in community halls is unsustainable. It's like blind blame.

Anything to sell the hate/blame narrative. Makes me wonder does painting an opposing force bad, automatically make you good? Or is the driving force a heavenly reward? Like the virgins

@mukiri wasn't you who was talking about having a decent conversation, even agree to disagree? didn't you condemn irking each other? Why don't you give a recourse and counter respectfully like @tycho?
Mukiri
#677 Posted : Sunday, January 28, 2018 4:29:00 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,090
Side show. Either that, or you see what you choose to see. I ask simple plain questions, but to hoodwink (either yourself or the populace) you try mix them with drama.

I'll ask again, in the hope that anyone reading it will first declutter his mind and see it for what it is... does painting an opposing force bad, automatically make you good? Or is the driving force a 'stipulated' heavenly reward? Like the virgins (Hadith 2687 from Google)

Philippians 4:11-13
AlphDoti
#678 Posted : Sunday, January 28, 2018 8:04:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
AlphDoti wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
Me I'd asked a genuine question earlier? What are female jihadists promised? 72 virgin men? And all these virgins, once 'popped' what happens? Re-virgination?

There is nothing like this in Islam my friend @Mukiri.

I think I've clarified this before. But of course I understand the huicy stories the media give you is so enticing.

You see, one of the biggest propaganda
...in this world that has been invented is of 72 virgins.
This has been amplified in the western countries many times that nowadays, many people accept it as fact and truth.

In fact, the media wants people
...to believe that this is a Muslim's reward for suicide.

The Quran and valid authentic Hadiths
are very clear about anyone who commits suicide.

The way Islam has condemned suicide
making as grave sin, then it is unthinkable for its followers to regard sex as a reward if they were to take their lives.

Today, the myth of the 72 virgins
remains potent ammunition for those who wish to see their point of view prevail against Islam.
Entities like the media have twisted this alleged saying to suit their fancies and smear Islam with ridicule and humiliation.

@mukiri, you have recycled this propaganda many times before. I replied to you four years ago in post #12: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 5:13:25 PM

Is all you know about is toys, kesha quickies and virgins??

The real truth is that the only person who believes in 72 virgins is you! All the other people in Wazua have learnt that was a propaganda and not part of Islam.
Mukiri
#679 Posted : Sunday, January 28, 2018 8:25:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,090
So if you don't get virgins, sex toys and quickies in the Mosque, what is your motivation spreading the same propaganda about others, that you seem not to like about your religion?

And will your prophet Muhamed be happy and welcome you to your heaven, because of how you behave? When you were converted, were you told to behave that way?

Philippians 4:11-13
AlphDoti
#680 Posted : Sunday, January 28, 2018 8:51:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 5,466
Location: Kenya
Mukiri wrote:
So if you don't get virgins, sex toys and quickies in the Mosque, what is your motivation spreading the same propaganda about others, that you seem not to like about your religion?

And will your prophet Muhamed be happy and welcome you to your heaven, because of how you behave? When you were converted, were you told to behave that way?

No we don't go for quickies in the mosque the way you were doing on keshas... and we neither sell s*x toys in mosque or anywhere else like you were promoting coz that is fornication...

And we don't say anything that is a lie... What I have raised where pastors are involved in vices in the the church openly is fact... If bringing that to the light hurts you, then sort it.
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