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33 Pages<12345>»
Cytonn Investments
Gatheuzi
#41 Posted : Wednesday, January 20, 2016 4:36:25 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/16/2009
Posts: 981
whiteowl wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Watch this thread. There will be many guys who lose their money to this scheme.

remember I said it here.


I'm watching from the sidelines too.If anyone wants above market rates they should go into business or tenderpreneurship.

Madoff may be in jail but his schemes are here to stay. For those who value their sleep please stay away.
Time is money, so money is time. Money saved is time gained in reverse!
Ric dees
#42 Posted : Wednesday, January 20, 2016 5:29:39 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632
IRR on mezz is around 14-25% depending on the deal and on this one am sure they stitched in a profit share formulae since they are probably the ones who put in risk capital....soo not sure what the problem is. If you watch the PE market closely they do have "a few slam dangs"; I have seen a lot of these in the UK and these sorts of returns are not an usual from top tier GPS. ..I would say these guy's were simply lucky on their first deal. They are playing in a high risk segment of the market so when things work you make a lot of money...chances of loosing money are equally high.

On that note people think Centum made money on UAP (still believe it was the deal of the decade in KE)...look closely at swedfund and Africinvest who exited at a handsome premium after investing for about 2 years...the IRR on these was probably north of 40%.

What I hear even from the Asian elite is that the team at cytonn sold 80% of the houses before they broke ground. ..the guys are good at the hype and they too have a good product....the one at ruaka is another "slam dang".... on a portfolio basis am sure they will have a few bad projects. ....it always does happen...even for the best GPs

As we all know how do developers make money? A significant part of the return is made during the land banking and project conceptualisation stage…. Very little is made after you break ground.

However I suspect they may have also used customer deposits, the regime appears to allow developers to spend customer deposits as they deem. ..that will change over time; it is being abused.


I am not sure bank lending would be significantly cheaper given where they are from a track record perspective. Construction loans are attracting kshs rates north of 18%.

What I have seen in recent structuring of real estate deals is outlined below:

I) The financial sponsor lends money to the JV at 16-20% target IRR. Entitled to 50%...25% if they finance the acquisition of land and 25% if they provide equity or risk capital.

Ii) The above structure thus allows the financial sponsor to get 50% of the profits once exit is achieved over and above the interest rate. This is the kicker they are using to push their returns north of 35%.

Iii) The developers initially sweat their way into the JV through a number of milestones. ..say 25% when land and approvals are sucured and the remaining 25% on financial close.

Iv) The developer does make some money by charging project management fee; but this keeps the office running and it is not where the money is. The developer does not inject any money....they literally sweat their way into 50% ownership of the JV; the incentive is that on exit they will walk away with 50% of the profits after lenders and the financial sponsor has been paid.

As you can see the financial sponsor has a good deal however if the developer read cytonn manages to deliver a profit after interest of 10% on a project worth 10 billion, dande will walk away with shs1billion. Am sure this is what is keeping his team awake,the incentive structure is just wonderful to the sponsor. ...


So the boy from Lehman brothers knows what he is doing.

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
Horton
#43 Posted : Wednesday, January 20, 2016 6:49:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,486
Location: Nairobi
Gatheuzi wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Watch this thread. There will be many guys who lose their money to this scheme.

remember I said it here.


I'm watching from the sidelines too.If anyone wants above market rates they should go into business or tenderpreneurship.

Madoff may be in jail but his schemes are here to stay. For those who value their sleep please stay away.


How is this madoff?? Are there any concrete facts u claim or u just hating?

This is a good product/company. They work hard and deliver. They havent failed on any of the deliverables thus far. I, unlike you, are talking from first hand experience not from rumours. Then again sophistacated investments aren't for everyone as the regulators say. So yeah, stay away smile
Chaka
#44 Posted : Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:00:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 2,102
Why aren't these guys also doing a Money Market Fund?
KulaRaha
#45 Posted : Thursday, January 21, 2016 7:58:31 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,455
Horton wrote:
Gatheuzi wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Watch this thread. There will be many guys who lose their money to this scheme.

remember I said it here.


I'm watching from the sidelines too.If anyone wants above market rates they should go into business or tenderpreneurship.

Madoff may be in jail but his schemes are here to stay. For those who value their sleep please stay away.


How is this madoff?? Are there any concrete facts u claim or u just hating?

This is a good product/company. They work hard and deliver. They havent failed on any of the deliverables thus far. I, unlike you, are talking from first hand experience not from rumours. Then again sophistacated investments aren't for everyone as the regulators say. So yeah, stay away smile


Sorry we slagging off your employer...Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Mainat
#46 Posted : Thursday, January 21, 2016 10:26:29 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,584
Kama hujui, uliza...
Sehemu ndio nyumba
paulkimani
#47 Posted : Thursday, January 21, 2016 10:34:50 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 1/19/2016
Posts: 36

Cytonn’s in-house lawyer, Patricia Wanjama – as well as being enjoined in the Britam suit – is being investigated by the LSK disciplinary committee. Her own father sits on the board of the LSK disciplinary committee, and Cytonn also now sponsors the LSK - as stated on the LSK website.


Many companies and individuals are creating real estate deals much larger than Cytonn – which begs the question – why is the media focusing on Cytonn (see BD article on Cytonn “Causing a storm” in the real estate market) – Are they “sponsoring” the media also?

I understand Horton did not approve of this comment on a previous thread as I am a “Hello”, however these are indeed important questions to ask before investing your money with anyone. Yes, I am new to this – I am also aware that if you invest, you must do so having conducted the necessary due diligence to ensure your investment is in safe and clean hands.
I’d be interested to read other people’s opinions on this forum.
maka
#48 Posted : Thursday, January 21, 2016 10:44:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,249
Location: Nairobi
Rates will be on the up very soon....be holding cash and get ready to enjoy good returns.
possunt quia posse videntur
whiteowl
#49 Posted : Friday, January 22, 2016 8:38:08 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/16/2014
Posts: 1,375
Location: Bohemian Grove
Horton wrote:
Gatheuzi wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Watch this thread. There will be many guys who lose their money to this scheme.

remember I said it here.


I'm watching from the sidelines too.If anyone wants above market rates they should go into business or tenderpreneurship.

Madoff may be in jail but his schemes are here to stay. For those who value their sleep please stay away.


How is this madoff?? Are there any concrete facts u claim or u just hating?

This is a good product/company. They work hard and deliver. They havent failed on any of the deliverables thus far. I, unlike you, are talking from first hand experience not from rumours. Then again sophistacated investments aren't for everyone as the regulators say. So yeah, stay away smile


Madoff also had thousands of customers with "first hand experience" of his profitable venture. You can make a lot of money here coz the greater the risk the greater the return.
sl8r
#50 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2016 12:07:29 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 67
Horton wrote:
I have some cash with Cytonn. Did 1m in Oct 2015 for 3 months at 21% it matured in Jan 2016. I rolled it over for 3 more months @18%. Good thing is they pay monthly. No dramas

For the guy who was asking about USD vs KES, if you were to convert from USD to KES and then back to USD, there could be exchange gains/losses here u need to consider. What if the USD:KES goes from 102,4 to maybe 110?

Also, consider buying the Cytonn shares. They had a private placement last year in March for 10/= per share. They are now :
a) at 40/= and
b) hard to come by
c) there is a plan for listing


The Alma, in Ruaka, we got an early bird offer @4.675m in Sept 2015. Thats for the 1 bed. Up by 900k so far figuratively speaking.


@ Horton How does one apply for the next (if any) private placement? whats the minimum capital outlay for these cytonn shares?? Im quite interested!!!
eco
#51 Posted : Sunday, February 21, 2016 1:26:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/17/2011
Posts: 229
sl8r wrote:
Horton wrote:
I have some cash with Cytonn. Did 1m in Oct 2015 for 3 months at 21% it matured in Jan 2016. I rolled it over for 3 more months @18%. Good thing is they pay monthly. No dramas

For the guy who was asking about USD vs KES, if you were to convert from USD to KES and then back to USD, there could be exchange gains/losses here u need to consider. What if the USD:KES goes from 102,4 to maybe 110?

Also, consider buying the Cytonn shares. They had a private placement last year in March for 10/= per share. They are now :
a) at 40/= and
b) hard to come by
c) there is a plan for listing


The Alma, in Ruaka, we got an early bird offer @4.675m in Sept 2015. That's for the 1 bed. Up by 900k so far figuratively speaking.


@ Horton How does one apply for the next (if any) private placement? whats the minimum capital outlay for these cytonn shares?? Im quite interested!!!

Cytonn share officially @ KES 60
popat
#52 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 2:33:04 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 299
Location: kenya
eco wrote:
sl8r wrote:
Horton wrote:
I have some cash with Cytonn. Did 1m in Oct 2015 for 3 months at 21% it matured in Jan 2016. I rolled it over for 3 more months @18%. Good thing is they pay monthly. No dramas

For the guy who was asking about USD vs KES, if you were to convert from USD to KES and then back to USD, there could be exchange gains/losses here u need to consider. What if the USD:KES goes from 102,4 to maybe 110?

Also, consider buying the Cytonn shares. They had a private placement last year in March for 10/= per share. They are now :
a) at 40/= and
b) hard to come by
c) there is a plan for listing


The Alma, in Ruaka, we got an early bird offer @4.675m in Sept 2015. That's for the 1 bed. Up by 900k so far figuratively speaking.


@ Horton How does one apply for the next (if any) private placement? whats the minimum capital outlay for these cytonn shares?? Im quite interested!!!

Cytonn share officially @ KES 60
So where can one get these shares.
KulaRaha
#53 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 3:46:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,455
Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months to 6 months
Return 14% pa (quarterly interest)
Ins. Company Pan African

Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months
Return 12.5% pa net (17.86% gross for CORPORATES and 14.70% gross for individuals)
Bank Post Bank

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 13% pa / 13.5% pa
Ins. Company British American

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 11.5% pa / 12% pa
Ins. Company UAP

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months to 12 months
Return 18% pa
Broker Cytonn Investments

See anything odd?
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
popat
#54 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 5:28:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 299
Location: kenya
KulaRaha wrote:
Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months to 6 months
Return 14% pa (quarterly interest)
Ins. Company Pan African

Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months
Return 12.5% pa net (17.86% gross for CORPORATES and 14.70% gross for individuals)
Bank Post Bank

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 13% pa / 13.5% pa
Ins. Company British American

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 11.5% pa / 12% pa
Ins. Company UAP

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months to 12 months
Return 18% pa
Broker Cytonn Investments

See anything odd?
This amounts to 1.5%per month???for Cytonn.Is that right??
maka
#55 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 5:30:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,249
Location: Nairobi
popat wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months to 6 months
Return 14% pa (quarterly interest)
Ins. Company Pan African

Minimum Amount Ksh. 5 Million +
Term 3 months
Return 12.5% pa net (17.86% gross for CORPORATES and 14.70% gross for individuals)
Bank Post Bank

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 13% pa / 13.5% pa
Ins. Company British American

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months / 6 months
Return 11.5% pa / 12% pa
Ins. Company UAP

Minimum Amount Ksh. 1 Million +
Term 3 months to 12 months
Return 18% pa
Broker Cytonn Investments

See anything odd?
This amounts to 1.5%per month???for Cytonn.Is that right??


Remove WHT at 15%
possunt quia posse videntur
Bachuma Gate
#56 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 6:41:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
They were at Galleria Sato. Rate18%. Min invest 1m. Min period 1 month with rollover.
DOH
Bachuma Gate
#57 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 6:46:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
Kula you will help us if you expound. I know they basically put the money in real estate development. But the bigger portion comes from PE. If they were to borrow, they would pay between 18% to 25pa.
DOH
Bachuma Gate
#58 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 6:48:21 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
CIC are currently doing 15%. From my mm statement.
DOH
KenyanEconomist
#59 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 7:05:41 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/7/2014
Posts: 40
Bachuma Gate wrote:
Kula you will help us if you expound. I know they basically put the money in real estate development. But the bigger portion comes from PE. If they were to borrow, they would pay between 18% to 25pa.



I don't think that Cytonn is investing money market cash in either property development or Private Equity, as both asset classes are medium to long term in duration, while money market cash matures in less than months. Not sure where they get the additional yield, but most likely it comes from taking more risk than other competitors!
Horton
#60 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 8:18:42 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,486
Location: Nairobi
If anyone attends their events, they deal with the top ten banks in Kenya and put in money based on individual bank requirements. They have large sums and hence command greater interest vs an individual
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