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2 Pages<12
Each 35 Million for send off!
tycho
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 9:37:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 7,101
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
Alba wrote:
masukuma wrote:


sorry mate! it doesn't work that way! and not just in Kenya... you get paid WHAT YOU NEGOTIATE NOT WHAT YOU DESERVE! Sorry mate... unfortunately that is how the world works.... you too are paid what you negotiated for and not what you are worth or deserve. Anyone who is able to ask for a high salary and get it - MORE POWER TO THEM!!!! It being tax payers money does not reduce the effect or lack of it in my house. If i got 100 bob from tax payers and 100 bob from selling makaa will the tax payers 100 bob take me further than the 100 bob from selling makaa? 100 bob is 100 bob! their needs do not diminish since they are paid from tax payers pockets and if all this is what you guys consider being corrupt... I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO BE CONSIDERED CORRUPT! VERY VERY HAPPY!!


This is utter rubbish, borne of sheer ignorance about how a government is supposed to work!

Negotiations are supposed to go in favor of the party that has leverage. In this case the government clearly has leverage.

Masukuma claims they negotiated what they deserve. He should tell us what the hell they do to deserve such pay.

The taxpayer deserves and has a right to know what is so special about Nyachae and his team that warrants such an expense.

Secondly When it comes to government jobs, there are supposed to be policies and job scales that govern what people are paid. Further to that, there is supposed to be public oversight either from parliament or some other independent appointed body.

The problem in Kenya is that we have a corrupt political class that basically scratches each others back when it comes to salaries.

Anyone who thinks a Ksh 35m payoff using tax payer money is warranted because they supposedly negotiated it has lost his mind.

There is no negotiation here. What we have is illicit backroom deals.

You even have Lenah Serem claiming in May that she did not know about the Ksh 35m awarded to each commissioner.

And you wonder why the wage bill in Kenya is out of control? You wonder what everyone is going on strike?

This is the same stupidity that justifies building a huge mansion for the vice president while hospitals lack equipment.

It is the same stupidity that justifies Waiguru buying a ball-pen for ksh 8000 supposedly because that is what the seller of the ball-pen negotiated.

It is the same ignorance that enables MPs to go to the USA for treatment at tax payer expense. I suppose Masukuma thinks that MPs negotiated such perks and therefore deserve it.

No negotiation. This is legalized political corruption pure and simple.

Anyone who lives in Kenya and claims that people dealing with the government get what they are worth and what they deserve is displaying gross ignorance. Even standard one children know that in Kenya due to lack of oversight, things are done via backroom deals and if you are well connected or if you have the ability to scratch someones back, you can use tax payer money as your ATM. It has nothing to do with negotiating or getting what you deserve. Nobody deserves a Ksh 35m sendoff.
'

Of course you mixed up everything from abuse of office and plain illegalities with matters of salary negotiations but whaRREVA MAN! Keep thinking there should be an upper limit to payments.


I think @masukuma, the problem is 'cold turkey'.
Alba
#22 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:07:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,225
Location: Bandalungwa
masukuma wrote:

Of course you mixed up everything from abuse of office and plain illegalities with matters of salary negotiations but whaRREVA MAN! Keep thinking there should be an upper limit to payments.


I never said what they are doing is illegal. I said such backroom deals are corrupt. There is such a thing as legal corruption.

You said these people deserve such hefty pay. You said they are worth such hefty pay. Then tell us what they have done to deserve such pay.

Sorry but the fact that they have the ability to negotiate via backroom deals does not make it right.

The Kenyan taxpayer has a right to demand an answer as to what makes them worth such pay. Whether Kenyans are angry enough or just resigned to their fate is a different story.
Alba
#23 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:27:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,225
Location: Bandalungwa
So if I'm reading this right, Ksh 315m was allocated for 9 commissioners for six months work. This is ksh 35.5 million per person or US $ 347,165

This is the equivalent of US$ 694,000 per year.

Now consider that President Obama is paid $US 400,000 per year
A new senator in the US congress is paid US 174,000 per year.

Finally consider that the US GDP is $17.914 trillion as of 2015 compared to Kenya which is listed at US$ 60 billion

So America's GDP is about 283 times larger than Kenya's GDP. Yet we pay our commissioner 50% more than the leader of the United states whose job is infinitely more difficult.

We pay them a salary that is 3 times higher than that of senator Marco Rubio of Florida


And masukuma would have us believe they deserve it because they are able to negotiate via corrupt backroom deals?

Can masukuma care to explain how they deserve a salary higher than the person doing the most difficult job in the world?

And this is a country that cannot provide basic things like good roads, or medicine and equipment in hospitals. A country where 60% of urbanites live in slums with no piped water, electricity or dignity. Whose middle class faces constant power blackouts and water rationing.

No wonder Moi said "Mwafrigha bhure ghabisa".

We've lost our capacity to think logically.

Logic suggests that the free market should dictate salaries. Your employer should only offer you what you can earn elsewhere.

Does masukuma think any of these commissioners can earn more than Obama in a free market?
urstill1
#24 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:54:13 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 9/6/2013
Posts: 1,431
Location: In a house
Alba wrote:
So if I'm reading this right, Ksh 315m was allocated for 9 commissioners for six months work. This is ksh 35.5 million per person or US $ 347,165

This is the equivalent of US$ 694,000 per year.

Now consider that President Obama is paid $US 400,000 per year
A new senator in the US congress is paid US 174,000 per year.

Finally consider that the US GDP is $17.914 trillion as of 2015 compared to Kenya which is listed at US$ 60 billion

So America's GDP is about 283 times larger than Kenya's GDP. Yet we pay our commissioner 50% more than the leader of the United states whose job is infinitely more difficult.

We pay them a salary that is 3 times higher than that of senator Marco Rubio of Florida


And masukuma would have us believe they deserve it because they are able to negotiate via corrupt backroom deals?

Can masukuma care to explain how they deserve a salary higher than the person doing the most difficult job in the world?

And this is a country that cannot provide basic things like good roads, or medicine and equipment in hospitals. A country where 60% of urbanites live in slums with no piped water, electricity or dignity. Whose middle class faces constant power blackouts and water rationing.

No wonder Moi said "Mwafrigha bhure ghabisa".

We've lost our capacity to think logically.

Logic suggests that the free market should dictate salaries. Your employer should only offer you what you can earn elsewhere.

Does masukuma think any of these commissioners can earn more than Obama in a free market?



@Alba, no need to whine. What is happening with our govt is a clear reflection of the majority in our country. That is the reason the current individuals are in power. In the country you have just mentioned things work because most of the processes if not all are structured to help the society. Here we praise rich individuals. Over 80% of Kenyan population is intellectually challenged. Education is not a substitute for intellect.
The ruling elite (the top <5%) prefer riding in guzzlers in our God forbidden roads and erecting high walls with detailed security to proper roads and better security for all. That is what the majority of us vote for every 5 years.
sitaki.kujulikana
#25 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:54:37 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,672
This is the exact definition of corruption, see below.

Corruption is the dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery:

and a bribe is a dishonest persuasion in order to gain favour via a gift of money or other inducement:

If some said guardians of the constitution manage to oversee such a payout, then that's just gaming the system to their favor, and they shamelessly ask for an extension.

We are a poor third world country as some of us are fond of stating, its like demanding for sex from your househelp, then claiming you negotiated for it, that's as good as rape.
Anti_Burglar
#26 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:40:14 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
masukuma wrote:
Alba wrote:
masukuma wrote:


sorry mate! it doesn't work that way! and not just in Kenya... you get paid WHAT YOU NEGOTIATE NOT WHAT YOU DESERVE! Sorry mate... unfortunately that is how the world works.... you too are paid what you negotiated for and not what you are worth or deserve. Anyone who is able to ask for a high salary and get it - MORE POWER TO THEM!!!! It being tax payers money does not reduce the effect or lack of it in my house. If i got 100 bob from tax payers and 100 bob from selling makaa will the tax payers 100 bob take me further than the 100 bob from selling makaa? 100 bob is 100 bob! their needs do not diminish since they are paid from tax payers pockets and if all this is what you guys consider being corrupt... I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO BE CONSIDERED CORRUPT! VERY VERY HAPPY!!


This is utter rubbish, borne of sheer ignorance about how a government is supposed to work!

Negotiations are supposed to go in favor of the party that has leverage. In this case the government clearly has leverage.

Masukuma claims they negotiated what they deserve. He should tell us what the hell they do to deserve such pay.

The taxpayer deserves and has a right to know what is so special about Nyachae and his team that warrants such an expense.

Secondly When it comes to government jobs, there are supposed to be policies and job scales that govern what people are paid. Further to that, there is supposed to be public oversight either from parliament or some other independent appointed body.

The problem in Kenya is that we have a corrupt political class that basically scratches each others back when it comes to salaries.

Anyone who thinks a Ksh 35m payoff using tax payer money is warranted because they supposedly negotiated it has lost his mind.

There is no negotiation here. What we have is illicit backroom deals.

You even have Lenah Serem claiming in May that she did not know about the Ksh 35m awarded to each commissioner.

And you wonder why the wage bill in Kenya is out of control? You wonder what everyone is going on strike?

This is the same stupidity that justifies building a huge mansion for the vice president while hospitals lack equipment.

It is the same stupidity that justifies Waiguru buying a ball-pen for ksh 8000 supposedly because that is what the seller of the ball-pen negotiated.

It is the same ignorance that enables MPs to go to the USA for treatment at tax payer expense. I suppose Masukuma thinks that MPs negotiated such perks and therefore deserve it.

No negotiation. This is legalized political corruption pure and simple.

Anyone who lives in Kenya and claims that people dealing with the government get what they are worth and what they deserve is displaying gross ignorance. Even standard one children know that in Kenya due to lack of oversight, things are done via backroom deals and if you are well connected or if you have the ability to scratch someones back, you can use tax payer money as your ATM. It has nothing to do with negotiating or getting what you deserve. Nobody deserves a Ksh 35m sendoff.
'

Of course you mixed up everything from abuse of office and plain illegalities with matters of salary negotiations but whaRREVA MAN! Keep thinking there should be an upper limit to payments.


In the coming new millenium socialism will be the prevailing ecomomic system. You will be your brothers keeper for a thousand years. Ask yourself, o Babylonian, how will you fit in?
sitaki.kujulikana
#27 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:44:06 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,672
One of the problems we have is that we fail to see beyond, we invest for our children not ourselves, and if one thinks that gaming the taxpayer now is fair, wait until your kids or grand kids fail to maintain your class they will be the ones visiting the public hospitals, sending their kids to public schools and begging the cops to protect them since they will not afford the private guards.

a society that does not look after the good of their future is as good as dead, look at the developed nations they are always looking at what their kids will think of them, hapa we are not even embarrassed to proclaim that we wish we were in gethi or nyachaes shoes.
masukuma
#28 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:28:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 11,831
Location: Nairobi
Alba wrote:
So if I'm reading this right, Ksh 315m was allocated for 9 commissioners for six months work. This is ksh 35.5 million per person or US $ 347,165

This is the equivalent of US$ 694,000 per year.

Now consider that President Obama is paid $US 400,000 per year
A new senator in the US congress is paid US 174,000 per year.

Finally consider that the US GDP is $17.914 trillion as of 2015 compared to Kenya which is listed at US$ 60 billion

So America's GDP is about 283 times larger than Kenya's GDP. Yet we pay our commissioner 50% more than the leader of the United states whose job is infinitely more difficult.

We pay them a salary that is 3 times higher than that of senator Marco Rubio of Florida


And masukuma would have us believe they deserve it because they are able to negotiate via corrupt backroom deals?

Can masukuma care to explain how they deserve a salary higher than the person doing the most difficult job in the world?

And this is a country that cannot provide basic things like good roads, or medicine and equipment in hospitals. A country where 60% of urbanites live in slums with no piped water, electricity or dignity. Whose middle class faces constant power blackouts and water rationing.

No wonder Moi said "Mwafrigha bhure ghabisa".

We've lost our capacity to think logically.

Logic suggests that the free market should dictate salaries. Your employer should only offer you what you can earn elsewhere.

Does masukuma think any of these commissioners can earn more than Obama in a free market?

Who said I SAID THEY DESERVE? I SAID THEY NEGOTIATED... LEGALLY! mark you comparing a country like the US to Kenya on both GDP and Political systems is comparing apples to oranges - it won't work!! The US is a country where IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY - YOU STAY AWAY FROM PUBLIC SERVICE!! Which is great... I have used this example 1000 times... Joe Biden was the second poorest congress man (think MP) in 2007-2008, why? here was the statement
Quote:
"I make a good salary, although I am listed as the second-poorest man in this Congress," Biden said in Missouri last week. "I’m not proud of it. I’m not proud of it. But that’s what happens when you get elected when you’re 29 years old."

The US has gotten it right... if you want to make money - stay away from politics!! HOWEVER our system is different - ok, if you want to make money... JOIN GOVERNMENT and so that is what they do.
Technically i think and I have no apologies to say this THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY LAWFULLY.... SHAKE DOWN THAT TREE UNTIL ALL FRUITS FALL OFF IT! So the current setup prevails here....
Does Obama deserve to be paid 400k a year? YEAH! should our CIC members be paid 300+K as send of HECK YEAH! your payment is not the same as other people's payment it's all based on your expectation when joining the job! In both countries no one is disappointed. However, if you guys are willing to turn politics into public service like in [insert some random european country you fancy here] , stop the schizophrenia of wanting 'power' and 'poverty' to live side by side and also electing your elite into politics and then wake me up but the status quo is as-is.
[to be used to communicate something profound]
PeterReborn
#29 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:12:40 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/3/2014
Posts: 984
There is high sense of ignorance on this thread.Do you know what is gratuity?Do you know how it is calculated as per the Kenyan law? Hii ingine ni sideshows.
“Each night, when I go to sleep, I die. And the next morning, when I wake up, I am reborn.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
sitaki.kujulikana
#30 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:23:42 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/25/2012
Posts: 1,672
PeterReborn wrote:
There is high sense of ignorance on this thread.Do you know what is gratuity?Do you know how it is calculated as per the Kenyan law? Hii ingine ni sideshows.

Ohh mighty, inteligent peter, please educate the ignorant, uneducated filth that have the balls to even mention that term.

don't they know how gravity is calculated, they don't know that english man called newborn who was fiddling with apples when he discovered gravity and the corresponding calculations.

Kratos
#31 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:05:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,684
kiash wrote:
Alba wrote:
Who approves such payments?
Kweli y'all live in a failed state



Sad{|= Sad{|= Sad{|= Its the same guy who approves the perdiems i read ati Kibunja of the Kenya Museums is earning perdiems and yet the museum is broke.
These SRC people are just dumb , why would such a failed state like Kenya
pay someone more than 700 dollars a day to stay in NewYork or Geneva ? which hotels do they stay in ?in which restaurants do they eat/dine? do they hire limos to travel around? surely, 200 dollars is enough and that way hawa ma joy riders will stop following the president everywhere.

They should pack together with the CIC , and by the way what are they doing in office? you do not need five years to say an MP should earn 400K d'oh! 1M , what do they do the rest of the time?
get part time commissioners !!


What exactly is a failed state? Is it a state governed by those you did not vote for? Is it a situation where you do not agree with policies of the current regime? Is it a country in which the opposition has deemed a failure? Unless the meaning has changed lets keep away from sensationalism shall we? Ohh wait....why not if we think that's how to win arguments and convince others of the "right way".

Equity vs Equality. Any capitalistic society like ours, is sure to provide opportunities for people to get richer legally (not morally, note the difference). Unfortunately it also divides the society into have's and have nots.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
Alba
#32 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 6:23:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,225
Location: Bandalungwa
masukuma wrote:

Who said I SAID THEY DESERVE? I SAID THEY NEGOTIATED...


This is precisly what is wrong with the country. The fact that people can negotiate such salaries via backroom deals. This is pure corruption. Only an irresponsible government does this.

Quote:
LEGALLY! mark you comparing a country like the US to Kenya on both GDP and Political systems is comparing apples to oranges - it won't work!!


If you work in a corporate setting, you understand the concept of benchmarking. A country that is run by people with brains should be looking at the best examples to emulate.

Quote:
The US is a country where IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY - YOU STAY AWAY FROM PUBLIC SERVICE!! Which is great... The US has gotten it right... if you want to make money - stay away from politics!! HOWEVER our system is different - ok, if you want to make money... JOIN GOVERNMENT and so that is what they do


That is why Kenya is a black hole and the US is a prosperous country. Instead of prioritizing issues like traffic, security, hospitals roads etc, we give huge salaries to people who do not deserve it. THen we come to wazua to complain about traffic and other issues. And we have people like masukuma who have lost the ability to think logically

Quote:

Technically i think and I have no apologies to say this THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY LAWFULLY.... SHAKE DOWN THAT TREE UNTIL ALL FRUITS FALL OFF IT!


Nobody asked you to apologize for anything. You are free to have your opinion. And I am free to point out the idiocy that makes Kenya a black hole.

Quote:

So the current setup prevails here....
Does Obama deserve to be paid 400k a year? YEAH! should our CIC members be paid 300+K as send of HECK YEAH! your payment is not the same as other people's payment it's all based on your expectation when joining the job! In both countries no one is disappointed. However, if you guys are willing to turn politics into public service like in [insert some random european country you fancy here] , stop the schizophrenia of wanting 'power' and 'poverty' to live side by side and also electing your elite into politics and then wake me up but the status quo is as-is.


Kenyan taxpayers have every right to question public salaries. The problem is people like you who try to jump down everyone's throat when they express an opinion that disagrees with yours.

The problem is people like you who lack the ability to think logically. Logic suggests that salaries should be determined by the open market. The Kenya government could have offered these commissioners much less money and told them to take it or leave it. Most of them would have taken less than half.

This is the same government that complains that the wage bill is preventing them from spending money on development. Yet they are the ones who are creating the huge wage bill.
masukuma
#33 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 6:53:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 11,831
Location: Nairobi
Alba wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Who said I SAID THEY DESERVE? I SAID THEY NEGOTIATED...


This is precisly what is wrong with the country. The fact that people can negotiate such salaries via backroom deals. This is pure corruption. Only an irresponsible government does this.

Quote:
LEGALLY! mark you comparing a country like the US to Kenya on both GDP and Political systems is comparing apples to oranges - it won't work!!


If you work in a corporate setting, you understand the concept of benchmarking. A country that is run by people with brains should be looking at the best examples to emulate.

Quote:
The US is a country where IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY - YOU STAY AWAY FROM PUBLIC SERVICE!! Which is great... The US has gotten it right... if you want to make money - stay away from politics!! HOWEVER our system is different - ok, if you want to make money... JOIN GOVERNMENT and so that is what they do


That is why Kenya is a black hole and the US is a prosperous country. Instead of prioritizing issues like traffic, security, hospitals roads etc, we give huge salaries to people who do not deserve it. THen we come to wazua to complain about traffic and other issues. And we have people like masukuma who have lost the ability to think logically

Quote:

Technically i think and I have no apologies to say this THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY LAWFULLY.... SHAKE DOWN THAT TREE UNTIL ALL FRUITS FALL OFF IT!


Nobody asked you to apologize for anything. You are free to have your opinion. And I am free to point out the idiocy that makes Kenya a black hole.

Quote:

So the current setup prevails here....
Does Obama deserve to be paid 400k a year? YEAH! should our CIC members be paid 300+K as send of HECK YEAH! your payment is not the same as other people's payment it's all based on your expectation when joining the job! In both countries no one is disappointed. However, if you guys are willing to turn politics into public service like in [insert some random european country you fancy here] , stop the schizophrenia of wanting 'power' and 'poverty' to live side by side and also electing your elite into politics and then wake me up but the status quo is as-is.


Kenyan taxpayers have every right to question public salaries. The problem is people like you who try to jump down everyone's throat when they express an opinion that disagrees with yours.

The problem is people like you who lack the ability to think logically. Logic suggests that salaries should be determined by the open market. The Kenya government could have offered these commissioners much less money and told them to take it or leave it. Most of them would have taken less than half.

This is the same government that complains that the wage bill is preventing them from spending money on development. Yet they are the ones who are creating the huge wage bill.

WhaRReva Man! TL;DR
[to be used to communicate something profound]
githundi
#34 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:12:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/19/2010
Posts: 1,277
Location: nairobi metropolitan
masukuma wrote:
Alba wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Who said I SAID THEY DESERVE? I SAID THEY NEGOTIATED...


This is precisly what is wrong with the country. The fact that people can negotiate such salaries via backroom deals. This is pure corruption. Only an irresponsible government does this.

Quote:
LEGALLY! mark you comparing a country like the US to Kenya on both GDP and Political systems is comparing apples to oranges - it won't work!!


If you work in a corporate setting, you understand the concept of benchmarking. A country that is run by people with brains should be looking at the best examples to emulate.

Quote:
The US is a country where IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY - YOU STAY AWAY FROM PUBLIC SERVICE!! Which is great... The US has gotten it right... if you want to make money - stay away from politics!! HOWEVER our system is different - ok, if you want to make money... JOIN GOVERNMENT and so that is what they do


That is why Kenya is a black hole and the US is a prosperous country. Instead of prioritizing issues like traffic, security, hospitals roads etc, we give huge salaries to people who do not deserve it. THen we come to wazua to complain about traffic and other issues. And we have people like masukuma who have lost the ability to think logically

Quote:

Technically i think and I have no apologies to say this THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY LAWFULLY.... SHAKE DOWN THAT TREE UNTIL ALL FRUITS FALL OFF IT!


Nobody asked you to apologize for anything. You are free to have your opinion. And I am free to point out the idiocy that makes Kenya a black hole.

Quote:

So the current setup prevails here....
Does Obama deserve to be paid 400k a year? YEAH! should our CIC members be paid 300+K as send of HECK YEAH! your payment is not the same as other people's payment it's all based on your expectation when joining the job! In both countries no one is disappointed. However, if you guys are willing to turn politics into public service like in [insert some random european country you fancy here] , stop the schizophrenia of wanting 'power' and 'poverty' to live side by side and also electing your elite into politics and then wake me up but the status quo is as-is.


Kenyan taxpayers have every right to question public salaries. The problem is people like you who try to jump down everyone's throat when they express an opinion that disagrees with yours.

The problem is people like you who lack the ability to think logically. Logic suggests that salaries should be determined by the open market. The Kenya government could have offered these commissioners much less money and told them to take it or leave it. Most of them would have taken less than half.

This is the same government that complains that the wage bill is preventing them from spending money on development. Yet they are the ones who are creating the huge wage bill.

WhaRReva Man! TL;DR

I concur with @ Alba, corruption by any other name is just that corruption. The biggest perpetrator of inequality in my opinion.
Democracy does not belong to the dead
masukuma
#35 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:23:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 11,831
Location: Nairobi

[to be used to communicate something profound]
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