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Maumau fiasco
chemirocha
#21 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 12:44:03 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/30/2016
Posts: 332
Location: Rift Valley
I think some people have drunk too much cool aid and are entirely missing the point of this thread. The matter at hand is the role of the Maumau in the struggle for independence in Kenya.

How that equates to defending the evils of the British is beyond me.

Swenani
#22 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 1:06:42 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,042
Location: Vacuum
hi Julie,

I'm home alone!

[quoteUsers browsing this topic
Guest (2), Julie, Swenani][/quote]
Poverty is the root of all evil
washiku
#23 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 1:53:44 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 13,076

Lolest!
#24 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 4:22:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
chemirocha wrote:
I think some people have drunk too much cool aid and are entirely missing the point of this thread. The matter at hand is the role of the Maumau in the struggle for independence in Kenya.

How that equates to defending the evils of the British is beyond me.


You are the one who went off by calling them thugs
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Lolest!
#25 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 4:24:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
washiku wrote:


Never released? This clip used to be played on National Holidays
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
masukuma
#26 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 4:52:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
washiku wrote:


Never released? This clip used to be played on National Holidays

parts of it - the identity of the home guards became evident recently - ama?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Kratos
#27 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 5:18:55 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
digitek1 wrote:
wukan wrote:
Something went wrong with our education system. Honestly some of the comments here are shocking.

1. How do you guys forget that in British imperialism was accompanied by sheer brute force. Winston Churchill remarked in 1908 after a raid on africans that "It looks like a butchery. If the H. of C. gets hold of it, all our plans in E.A.P. will be under a cloud. Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale"

2. British rule was about forceful land grabbing, forced labour and concentration camps called native villages. Until 1950 by statute african employees were to be publicly flogged by the white settles because they thought africans were like children and needed to be treated as such. It took the World war II for africans to understand the colonisers were after all human and they died from wounds.

3.When you call Maumau thugs, what about the British settlers in Hola camp they clubbed africans to death, castrated them and burnt them alive. Between 1952 to 1956 they hang 1,015 africans. There were mass trials of upto 50 men with numbers around their necks and most were led to the gallows in groups of 10 to 20 men together. In the words of Labour MP Barbara Castle the entire system of justice in kenya had "Nazi" attitude towards africans. What wrong with you people?

4.The Mau mau thugs as you call them were in the forest for 4 years without external support before they were defeated. Lincoln bombers dropped 6 million bombs on these defenceless "thugs". Despite all the bombings and being chased around the forest these guys had the time to primitively reverse engineer and make home made guns. That is the only technological innovation attempted by africans in the field of modern war. Have we invented an ugali making machine in the 50+ years of peace?

5. The British were very effective in propaganda that's why the mau mau rebellion morphed from a nationalist uprising into a kikuyu civil war. Caroline Elkins explores this in Imperial Reckoning, Henry Holt and Company, NY, 2005. She says:
Like most wars, Mau Mau was as much about propaganda as it was about reality...Equally powerful as the photographs distributed by the Colonial Office was the language used to describe the Mau Mau...the "white" and "enlightened" forces of British colonialism were in stark contradistinction to the "dark," "evil," "foul," "secretive," and "degraded" Mau Mau. These descriptions spilled over into the Kenyan and British press, where the sensationalist accounts juxtaposed white heroism with African, or Mau Mau terrorism and savagery.

6.You may believe the propaganda just as the The New York Times reported that the Mau Mau movement was a result of the frustrations of a savage people neither mentally nor economically able to adjust itself to the swift pace of civilization but have some decency to believe in your self-determination to write your african story and tell your children that once upon a time the British had brutally ruled kenya for many years and the people of an occupied nation desired independence. There were some who believed in eating and breeding peacefully there were some who wanted political reconciliation and some who believed that blood and terror would send the British away. Teach them that all nations(including Britain) are where they are because of self-determination and it never comes easy. As always history is written by the victors.

7. All in all the uncle Toms won and their grand kids are now keyboard warriors enjoying the fruits of independence calling fellow africans thugs who delayed independence. As always in war those who survive are the real winners.

Applause Applause well said. ....but don't catch feelings keyboard warriors and armchair punditry are wazuas forte Laughing out loudly


and here i am thinking after reading previous comments that my grandparents lied to me regarding the history of mau mau. I guess we still believe history written by mzungu as opposed to personal experiences from cúcú.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
Fyatu
#28 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 7:19:27 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,664
Location: Nakuru
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


The MauMau struggle was real. Kimathi's blood watered the tree of independence.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
masukuma
#29 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 8:51:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


The MauMau struggle was real. Kimathi's blood watered the tree of independence.

ansd stunted it's growth! trees don't grow on blood!

Quote:

Algeria July 5th, 1962 France
Angola November 11th; 1975 Portugal
Benin August 1st; 1960 French
Botswana September 30th, 1966 Britain
Burkina Faso August 5; 1960 France
Burundi July 1st; 1962 Belgium
Cameroon January 1st; 1960 French-administered UN trusteeship
Cape Verde July 5th; 1975 Portugal
C.A.R August 13th; 1960 France
Chad August 11th, 1960 France
Comoros July 6th; 1975 France
Congo August 15th; 1960 France
Congo DR June 30th; 1960 Belgium
Cote d'Ivoire August 7th; 1960 France
Djibouti June 27th; 1977 France
Egypt February 28th, 1922 Britain
Eq Guinea October 12; 1968 Spain
Eritrea May 24th; 1993 Ethiopia
Ethiopia over 2000 years,
Never colonized (formerly)
Kingdom of Aksum --
Gabon August 17th; 1960 France
Gambia February 18th; 1965 Britain
Ghana 6 March 1957 Gold Coast Britain
Guinea October 2nd; 1958 France
Guinea Bissau 10 September 1974
24 September 1973 Portugal
Kenya December 12th, 1963 Britain
Lesotho October 4th; 1966 Britain
Liberia July 26th; 1847 American colonization Society
Libya December 24; 1951 Italy
Madagascar June 26th; 1960 France
Malawi July 6th; 1964 Britain
Mali September 22nd; 1960 France
Mauritania November 28th; 1960 France
Mauritius March 12th, 1968 Britain
Morocco March 2nd; 1956 France
Mozambique June 25th; 1975 Portugal
Namibia March 21st; 1990 South African mandate
Niger August 3rd; 1960 France
Nigeria October 1st, 1960 Britain
Rwanda July 1st; 1962 Belgium administered UN trusteeship
SaoTomePrincipe July 12th; 1975 Portugal
Senegal April 4th; 1960 France
Seychelles June 29th; 1976 Britain
Sierra Leone April 27th; 1961 Britain
Somalia July 1st; 1960 British Somaliland
Italian Somaliland Britain
Italy
South Africa 11 December 1931,
April 1994(end of apatheid) Union of South Africa Britain
Sudan January 1st; 1956 Egypt, Britain
Swaziland September 6th; 1968 Britain
Tanzania April 26th, 1964 Britain
Togo April 27th; 1960 French administered UN trusteeship
Tunisia March 20th; 1956 France
Uganda October 9th; 1962 Britain
Zambia October 24th; 1964 Britain
Zimbabwe April 18th; 1980 Britain


just look at the dates...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Lolest!
#30 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 10:33:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
masukuma wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


The MauMau struggle was real. Kimathi's blood watered the tree of independence.

ansd stunted it's growth! trees don't grow on blood!

Quote:

Algeria July 5th, 1962 France
Angola November 11th; 1975 Portugal

ETC ETC


just look at the dates...


Why are the dates not within 5 years of each other?

We need to understand that the colonialism experience was not the same across all colonies. Even within Kenya, the pressure was felt more by some communities more than others!


Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
masukuma
#31 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:45:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
tycho wrote:
That the maumau fought and died for the people of Kenya is an absurd story to feed our minds with.

The truth is that these were disaffected people who tried to shape their experience and failed miserably and won nothing for anyone.


The MauMau struggle was real. Kimathi's blood watered the tree of independence.

ansd stunted it's growth! trees don't grow on blood!

Quote:

Algeria July 5th, 1962 France
Angola November 11th; 1975 Portugal

ETC ETC


just look at the dates...


Why are the dates not within 5 years of each other?

We need to understand that the colonialism experience was not the same across all colonies. Even within Kenya, the pressure was felt more by some communities more than others!



why 5? each colony had it's interests in what they wanted from colonialism. The French way of colonising was very different from the british and the Portuguese. The worst were the prortugese then the french. some people just wanted names on the map like the italians and germans - most of colonialism stemmed from competition in europe. so back to my point - what we need to understand is that the british that colonialised us were very willing to let go of the territories but the settlers were not! the settlers declared independence in SA and Zim right? even Canada and Australia did that too - they became independent states. What would have been the fate of Kenya if we didn't have the Mau Mau war? would it have been an independent country following the patterns of SA, Canada and Zim? or would it have been like it's neighbours UG and TZ? I guess that is something that we can only guess but we cannot guess the effect of the Mau Mau on the native population. They killed scores more locals than europeans... it's like the pre independence people suffered more from the Mau Mau than from the british. p.s. While we don't rubbish your cucu's stories - we are more aware now of the greater geopolitical power plays that were taking place during that time than she ever was. She may have understood the native's situation better in her locality say Nyeri but her tales do not explain how and why a nation with one of the largest navies, one which was on the allied side that beat germany in the world war 20 years before that was beaten by a bunch of dreadlocked individuals who never even had a village in their control.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
kysse
#32 Posted : Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:49:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth
Well it was/is in the syllabus so its deeply engraved in our mindsets.
I am a maumau descendant.
Lolest!
#33 Posted : Sunday, March 20, 2016 12:10:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
masukuma wrote:

why 5? each colony had it's interests in what they wanted from colonialism. The French way of colonising was very different from the british and the Portuguese. The worst were the prortugese then the french. some people just wanted names on the map like the italians and germans - most of colonialism stemmed from competition in europe. so back to my point - what we need to understand is that the british that colonialised us were very willing to let go of the territories but the settlers were not! the settlers declared independence in SA and Zim right? even Canada and Australia did that too - they became independent states. What would have been the fate of Kenya if we didn't have the Mau Mau war? would it have been an independent country following the patterns of SA, Canada and Zim? or would it have been like it's neighbours UG and TZ? I guess that is something that we can only guess but we cannot guess the effect of the Mau Mau on the native population. They killed scores more locals than europeans... it's like the pre independence people suffered more from the Mau Mau than from the british. p.s. While we don't rubbish your cucu's stories - we are more aware now of the greater geopolitical power plays that were taking place during that time than she ever was. She may have understood the native's situation better in her locality say Nyeri but her tales do not explain how and why a nation with one of the largest navies, one which was on the allied side that beat germany in the world war 20 years before that was beaten by a bunch of dreadlocked individuals who never even had a village in their control.

5 because I thought you wanted to put across the point that from the 1950s it was freedom time...make it 10

By and large I think we agree. The only point we may disagree on is whether the guerrilla war was of any help to the independence cause.

I think it was. It caused lots of suffering among the GEMA tribes but it did help.
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
harrydre
#34 Posted : Sunday, March 20, 2016 6:00:04 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,079
Location: Kanjo
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
washiku wrote:


Never released? This clip used to be played on National Holidays

parts of it - the identity of the home guards became evident recently - ama?



who are they?
Lolest!
#35 Posted : Sunday, March 20, 2016 7:21:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,783
Location: Kianjokoma
harrydre wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
washiku wrote:


Never released? This clip used to be played on National Holidays

parts of it - the identity of the home guards became evident recently - ama?



who are they?

agreed. Iko longer
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
masukuma
#36 Posted : Monday, March 21, 2016 12:18:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
masukuma wrote:

why 5? each colony had it's interests in what they wanted from colonialism. The French way of colonising was very different from the british and the Portuguese. The worst were the prortugese then the french. some people just wanted names on the map like the italians and germans - most of colonialism stemmed from competition in europe. so back to my point - what we need to understand is that the british that colonialised us were very willing to let go of the territories but the settlers were not! the settlers declared independence in SA and Zim right? even Canada and Australia did that too - they became independent states. What would have been the fate of Kenya if we didn't have the Mau Mau war? would it have been an independent country following the patterns of SA, Canada and Zim? or would it have been like it's neighbours UG and TZ? I guess that is something that we can only guess but we cannot guess the effect of the Mau Mau on the native population. They killed scores more locals than europeans... it's like the pre independence people suffered more from the Mau Mau than from the british. p.s. While we don't rubbish your cucu's stories - we are more aware now of the greater geopolitical power plays that were taking place during that time than she ever was. She may have understood the native's situation better in her locality say Nyeri but her tales do not explain how and why a nation with one of the largest navies, one which was on the allied side that beat germany in the world war 20 years before that was beaten by a bunch of dreadlocked individuals who never even had a village in their control.

5 because I thought you wanted to put across the point that from the 1950s it was freedom time...make it 10

By and large I think we agree. The only point we may disagree on is whether the guerrilla war was of any help to the independence cause.

I think it was. It caused lots of suffering among the GEMA tribes but it did help.

I think independence was to come (even from your statement on Briggs..?) but what kind of independence would it have been? SA style? Zim style? or TZ/UG style?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#37 Posted : Monday, March 21, 2016 8:47:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,580
Location: Nairobi
The maumau narrative, is mainly a false narrative. It's mostly propaganda against an African reaction to colonialism that I suspect few have come to understand.

Take the revealed details of Dedan Kimathi's arrest and sentencing. According to them, what was he? A pauper and criminal. Were the rules of war and insurgency so primitive by then to warrant such a description?

When one considers the meaning of maumau commonly peddled; mzungu aende ulaya mwafrika apate Uhuru, does it sound like a realistic objective whose outcome was independence?

The other name, Kenya Land and Freedom Army, takes 'Kenya' as a fact; didn't this then undermine the effort of waging war?

What about the military strategy used by the maumau? I take it that they turned mostly against other Africans in a bid to build resentment and fear against the whites hoping to build a critical mass against the colonialists. Was that strategy sufficient or even prudent?

The maumau story is a fiasco mainly because it's given to create a sense of finished business on the African front especially given independence. But unfortunately not only do the stories not add up, but neither does independence quench the thirst of the citizens of the now independent states. One wonders whether it was the same thirst driving Dedan Kimathi.

Granted, maumau agitation led to hastening the independence process, given the rising costs to the British government with respect to gains. But had the settlers had more economic power then even with maumau fighting Kenya would have gone the 'South Africa way'.


FRM2011
#38 Posted : Monday, March 21, 2016 10:04:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,403
Mr. Masie blomfield, the owner of cavina school in kilimani, is as racist as they come. When kibaki unveiled the Dedan Kimathi statue on kimathi Street, he wrote an article to the editor daily nation wondering why a self respecting nation would honour a terrorist.

The bile that followed, a good number of people were calling for his deportation while others thought the fact that such a vile character can be allowed to express his bigoted opinion was a hallmark of our liberalism.

I thought I could live with one neo-colonialist, since he is an old geezer who will die soon anyway. Didn't know we had a whole load of them here in wazua.

Disclaimer; my grandpa served 7 years at manyani.

If our short history has taught us something, it is that sacrificing for kenya is a stupid idea. When my grandpa, was at manyani, jeremia kiereini, was the educated Kikuyu accompanying the white sadists extracting confessions from the semi literate maumau through torture. They needed someone to translate and coerce the maumau in a language they would understand. My grandpa died a pauper and kiereini has been sitting at the high table since independence.

Where is rumba kinuthia, koigi wamwere, suba churchill, wanyiri kihoro, and the rest of second liberation heroes?

Ooh, sorry I forgot, they only served to delay the second liberation. There was a wave of multipartyism and Moi would have allowed multi parties anyway.
tycho
#39 Posted : Monday, March 21, 2016 10:41:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,580
Location: Nairobi
Speaking of 'multipartysim'; the US had the leading role in promoting it. The US also played a leading role in calling for independence of many colonies. Why did they play the role? Changing political conditions would make them richer and more powerful.

After all, isn't it odd for us to speak of a 'second liberation'?
masukuma
#40 Posted : Monday, March 21, 2016 10:45:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,211
Location: Nairobi
FRM2011 wrote:
Mr. Masie blomfield, the owner of cavina school in kilimani, is as racist as they come. When kibaki unveiled the Dedan Kimathi statue on kimathi Street, he wrote an article to the editor daily nation wondering why a self respecting nation would honour a terrorist.

The bile that followed, a good number of people were calling for his deportation while others thought the fact that such a vile character can be allowed to express his bigoted opinion was a hallmark of our liberalism.

I thought I could live with one neo-colonialist, since he is an old geezer who will die soon anyway. Didn't know we had a whole load of them here in wazua.

Disclaimer; my grandpa served 7 years at manyani.

If our short history has taught us something, it is that sacrificing for kenya is a stupid idea. When my grandpa, was at manyani, jeremia kiereini, was the educated Kikuyu accompanying the white sadists extracting confessions from the semi literate maumau through torture. They needed someone to translate and coerce the maumau in a language they would understand. My grandpa died a pauper and kiereini has been sitting at the high table since independence.

Where is rumba kinuthia, koigi wamwere, suba churchill, wanyiri kihoro, and the rest of second liberation heroes?

Ooh, sorry I forgot, they only served to delay the second liberation. There was a wave of multipartyism and Moi would have allowed multi parties anyway.

Sorry about your grandpa. But however history is what it is - brutal. I don't think giving yourself to any cause is a good idea... it's not a prudent idea. Paying a personal penalty with expectations is never rewarded anywhere on earth. You may get a medal or a title or something tokenistic in nature but that's it. So tenda Mema nenda zako should be our policy. My heartfelt sympathy to your grandpa.
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