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3 Pages<123>
How the Europeans Divided Africa
Lolest!
#21 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 10:40:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,737
Location: Kianjokoma
masukuma wrote:
Even when they discovered all these things - they couldn’t stand Malaria. It didn’t just happen here but also in New Guinea. The came but didn’t stay. Not as they did in the Americans, Australia and New Zealand.

"The British say that unlike Ghana we are not ready. The only difference between us and Ghana is they have more mosquitoes"-Tom Mboya on why Britain was reluctant to leave Kenya
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
sparkly
#22 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 11:35:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,298
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
1. Human civilisations rise and fall.

2. Great empires overstretch themselves, become complacent and are conquered by barbarians. History repeats itself.

3. If fact, Obama becoming US president is a good demo of black africa conquering the "new world".

Life is short. Live passionately.
masukuma
#23 Posted : Saturday, June 22, 2019 7:38:38 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,208
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Even when they discovered all these things - they couldn’t stand Malaria. It didn’t just happen here but also in New Guinea. The came but didn’t stay. Not as they did in the Americans, Australia and New Zealand.

"The British say that unlike Ghana we are not ready. The only difference between us and Ghana is they have more mosquitoes"-Tom Mboya on why Britain was reluctant to leave Kenya

there were 2 types of British... The empire and the colonizers. the colonizers had figured out some nice Malaria free "highlands" and they were not willing to leave them behind. if it was not atrocities like the Hola massacre that came to the forefront - the British empire (the decision makers in the UK) would have never given us the brand of independence we got.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#24 Posted : Saturday, June 22, 2019 11:20:00 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,484
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Even when they discovered all these things - they couldn’t stand Malaria. It didn’t just happen here but also in New Guinea. The came but didn’t stay. Not as they did in the Americans, Australia and New Zealand.

"The British say that unlike Ghana we are not ready. The only difference between us and Ghana is they have more mosquitoes"-Tom Mboya on why Britain was reluctant to leave Kenya

there were 2 types of British... The empire and the colonizers. the colonizers had figured out some nice Malaria free "highlands" and they were not willing to leave them behind. if it was not atrocities like the Hola massacre that came to the forefront - the British empire (the decision makers in the UK) would have never given us the brand of independence we got.


I wonder what proof exists for this assertion.
masukuma
#25 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2019 6:31:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,208
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Even when they discovered all these things - they couldn’t stand Malaria. It didn’t just happen here but also in New Guinea. The came but didn’t stay. Not as they did in the Americans, Australia and New Zealand.

"The British say that unlike Ghana we are not ready. The only difference between us and Ghana is they have more mosquitoes"-Tom Mboya on why Britain was reluctant to leave Kenya

there were 2 types of British... The empire and the colonizers. the colonizers had figured out some nice Malaria free "highlands" and they were not willing to leave them behind. if it was not atrocities like the Hola massacre that came to the forefront - the British empire (the decision makers in the UK) would have never given us the brand of independence we got.


I wonder what proof exists for this assertion.

reading widely?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
hardwood
#26 Posted : Sunday, June 23, 2019 12:18:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,486
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Nice read about the experiences of a colonial officer in Kenya.

https://www.britishempir...kenyacolonialservice.htm
Lolest!
#27 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2019 7:06:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,737
Location: Kianjokoma
hardwood wrote:
Nice read about the experiences of a colonial officer in Kenya.

https://www.britishempir...enyacolonialservice.htm


Great link there @ hardwood
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
hardwood
#28 Posted : Thursday, August 08, 2019 2:40:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,486
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
radiomast
#29 Posted : Friday, August 09, 2019 5:36:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 287
tycho wrote:
The worst thing that happened to us was being convinced that the visitors had superior knowledge and that we needed their social and political institutions.

Sample this case https://www.theguardian....bert-baldwin-sam-little



Its not a bad thing to admit that someone is better than you or does something better than you. We can learn a lot from others. But we don't have to do nonsense like sending 85 MPs to Tennessee to lavish themselves with daily stipends while pretending to learn something. This is where Mwafrigha fails.

But the first step is to admit that other countries are far more advanced than us. The next step is to figure out what we need to do in order to close the gap.
masukuma
#30 Posted : Friday, August 09, 2019 8:32:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,208
Location: Nairobi
radiomast wrote:
tycho wrote:
The worst thing that happened to us was being convinced that the visitors had superior knowledge and that we needed their social and political institutions.

Sample this case https://www.theguardian....bert-baldwin-sam-little



Its not a bad thing to admit that someone is better than you or does something better than you. We can learn a lot from others. But we don't have to do nonsense like sending 85 MPs to Tennessee to lavish themselves with daily stipends while pretending to learn something. This is where Mwafrigha fails.

But the first step is to admit that other countries are far more advanced than us. The next step is to figure out what we need to do in order to close the gap.

I am one of the first people to argue that all humans are largely the same - the question that comes next is always... why the distinct differences ? sometime they look like different species at work.
Present Day Haiti and a country less than 2000km away is stark! but why? it's tempting and almost natural to look at the two groups of people and characterize these differences based on how different they look. The Haitians are black and the Americans are white. A little study of history shows that it's the institutions that matter. Since poverty is the default state of human existence. the question should then be... why did certain societies prosper and get rid of their poverty? INSTITUTIONS!! SOCIAL AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS. White people who have different types of these institutions end up differently. Different races that implement the same institutions end up in the same place.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
hardwood
#31 Posted : Friday, August 09, 2019 10:33:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,486
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
masukuma wrote:
radiomast wrote:
tycho wrote:
The worst thing that happened to us was being convinced that the visitors had superior knowledge and that we needed their social and political institutions.

Sample this case https://www.theguardian....bert-baldwin-sam-little



Its not a bad thing to admit that someone is better than you or does something better than you. We can learn a lot from others. But we don't have to do nonsense like sending 85 MPs to Tennessee to lavish themselves with daily stipends while pretending to learn something. This is where Mwafrigha fails.

But the first step is to admit that other countries are far more advanced than us. The next step is to figure out what we need to do in order to close the gap.

I am one of the first people to argue that all humans are largely the same - the question that comes next is always... why the distinct differences ? sometime they look like different species at work.
Present Day Haiti and a country less than 2000km away is stark! but why? it's tempting and almost natural to look at the two groups of people and characterize these differences based on how different they look. The Haitians are black and the Americans are white. A little study of history shows that it's the institutions that matter. Since poverty is the default state of human existence. the question should then be... why did certain societies prosper and get rid of their poverty? INSTITUTIONS!! SOCIAL AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS. White people who have different types of these institutions end up differently. Different races that implement the same institutions end up in the same place.


Haiti is a wrong example. Do you know that when the slaves in Haiti rebelled and kicked out the french slave owners and established the first black republic in 1825, they were forced to accept to pay france USD 21 billion to compensate the french colonist slave and land owners they had conquered? They only finished repaying the loan juzi. NB this is akin to the british in 1963 asking kenya to pay USD 21B to compensate the whjite settlers who had been kicked out of the country. Basically haitians won independence about 200yrs ago but continued being slaves working for the french until recently. And all the colonial powers supported France coz they feared the slaves in their colonies could copy haiti nd revolt. That is why Haiti punishment was so severe ndio iwe funzo for any other nyeuthi hoping to also kick out "the master". Also note that all francophone countries in Africa are also still paying France todate for their freedom.

https://www.forbes.com/s...y-it-back/#4da2bb93312b

https://urbanintellectua...ps-countries-refuse-pay/
radiomast
#32 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 4:22:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 287
@Masukuma you need to read more widely about Haiti. If there is any nation that can blame all its tribulations on western powers, it is Haiti.

Aside from the fact that France and USA imposed a massive debt on Haiti, those two countries contrived at various points to sabotage Haiti.

1. After the slave revolt, USA and France refused to recognize Haiti and instead retaliated with a trade embago and naval blockade to force Haiti to compensate France for the slave rebellion.

2. Haiti ended up borrowing heavily from the USA to pay France.
3. USA occupied Haiti between 1915 and 1934, collecting taxes and taking Haiti's natural resources for its own use.
4. USA propped up Haitian dictators, most notable Papa Doc and Baby Doc who ruled from 1957 to 1986 racking up billions of dollars in debt
radiomast
#33 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 7:31:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 287
Going back to the topic at hand. A good comparison is South Korea vs Kenya. Both countries had similar GDP in 1963. What did these two countries do differently? There are a number of factors:

1. Korea made it easy to do business and invest by enforcing transparency. Kenya made it difficult to invest via opaque deals and corruption.

2. South Korea invested heavily in technology. Kenyan politicians directed government revenues to themselves and cronies

3. South Korea partnered with Chaebols by investing in them, exempting them from import duties and gave them access to resources. Kenyan politicians gave themselves import duties so they can import commodities made overseas and sell them cheap thus undercutting local industries.

4. Land reform: Starting in 1945, Korea redsitributed land that was previously owned by Japanese colonialists with a view towards collectivism i.e. projects that would benefit large populations. Kenyan bigwigs redistributed land previously owned by colonialists to themselves.

Yes we can learn something from Korea. But will we?
radiomast
#34 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 7:33:11 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 287
Kusadikika
#35 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 9:52:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,604
masukuma wrote:
radiomast wrote:
tycho wrote:
The worst thing that happened to us was being convinced that the visitors had superior knowledge and that we needed their social and political institutions.

Sample this case https://www.theguardian....bert-baldwin-sam-little



Its not a bad thing to admit that someone is better than you or does something better than you. We can learn a lot from others. But we don't have to do nonsense like sending 85 MPs to Tennessee to lavish themselves with daily stipends while pretending to learn something. This is where Mwafrigha fails.

But the first step is to admit that other countries are far more advanced than us. The next step is to figure out what we need to do in order to close the gap.

I am one of the first people to argue that all humans are largely the same - the question that comes next is always... why the distinct differences ? sometime they look like different species at work.
Present Day Haiti and a country less than 2000km away is stark! but why? it's tempting and almost natural to look at the two groups of people and characterize these differences based on how different they look. The Haitians are black and the Americans are white. A little study of history shows that it's the institutions that matter. Since poverty is the default state of human existence. the question should then be... why did certain societies prosper and get rid of their poverty? INSTITUTIONS!! SOCIAL AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS. White people who have different types of these institutions end up differently. Different races that implement the same institutions end up in the same place.


I will argue that human beings and different races are inherently different. White people for example are by nature restless, more restless than us. The reason why they were called wazungus was because they came but could not stay in one place and they also had many questions, what is the name of that hill, what do you call this river where does this river come from.

Africans were puzzled, what do you mean where does this river come from, who cares, its always been here. You might think those were old time ignorant guys but I challenge you to try this, go outside right now and see how many trees, grasses, birds, insects and flowers you can name. I bet if you pick a random mzungu on the street they will probably have more information of this kind than a random African. A random African will however be more informed on things like politics or the procedure for marrying or funeral than the mzungu. It is quite normal for a Kenyan who has stayed in say the US for about 2 years to know more about US politics than an American who has lived there all his life but whose work does not involve politics. It is also quite common that a mzungu who has lived in Kenya for 2 years has traveled to more places and knows more about the Geography, plants, animals etc than most Kenyans who have lived here all their lives. We are just curious about different things.

If you go to a high end neighborhood that has both Africans and Wazungus there is very high likelihood that without meeting the people who live there you can tell which houses belong to wazungus simply by looking at the lawns, fences, hedges and gardens. We have different interests which means we take care of things differently.

Comparing Kenya to South Korea just by looking at GDP numbers is in my opinion rather shallow and myopic. It is like getting 2 people and measuring them by the amount of money in their pockets and then declaring that they are equal because they have the same amount of money. One guy is a chokora who has never gone to school puffs glue and collects and sells plastic bottles the other one is a university graduate who has fallen on hard times because his family has just been displaced by tribal clashes. They now both have 2,000 shillings in their pockets but that does not mean they are equal.

Korea is homogeneous. The country has a history as a nation going back 2000 years. The period that Kenyans like to site as Korea being equal to Kenya is the period after the Korean war in which about a million people died. After independence in 1963 many of the British with expertise in different fields were leaving Kenya (about 10,000 whites left in 1963) In South Korea after the war they were benefiting from expertise coming into the country with some Americans who had participated in the war staying and even more American companies investing.
masukuma
#36 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:23:06 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,208
Location: Nairobi
radiomast wrote:
@Masukuma you need to read more widely about Haiti. If there is any nation that can blame all its tribulations on western powers, it is Haiti.

Aside from the fact that France and USA imposed a massive debt on Haiti, those two countries contrived at various points to sabotage Haiti.

1. After the slave revolt, USA and France refused to recognize Haiti and instead retaliated with a trade embago and naval blockade to force Haiti to compensate France for the slave rebellion.

2. Haiti ended up borrowing heavily from the USA to pay France.
3. USA occupied Haiti between 1915 and 1934, collecting taxes and taking Haiti's natural resources for its own use.
4. USA propped up Haitian dictators, most notable Papa Doc and Baby Doc who ruled from 1957 to 1986 racking up billions of dollars in debt

that is all true. I have read it... by the way... if there was a country that black people kicked out 'mbeberu' it was Haiti. These are all true. but blame is a pie and it has to be shared... in there is a slice for Haitians. the Docs were Haitians... We can shift blame all we want but there is a slice for us in there.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#37 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:29:41 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,208
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
radiomast wrote:
tycho wrote:
The worst thing that happened to us was being convinced that the visitors had superior knowledge and that we needed their social and political institutions.

Sample this case https://www.theguardian....bert-baldwin-sam-little



Its not a bad thing to admit that someone is better than you or does something better than you. We can learn a lot from others. But we don't have to do nonsense like sending 85 MPs to Tennessee to lavish themselves with daily stipends while pretending to learn something. This is where Mwafrigha fails.

But the first step is to admit that other countries are far more advanced than us. The next step is to figure out what we need to do in order to close the gap.

I am one of the first people to argue that all humans are largely the same - the question that comes next is always... why the distinct differences ? sometime they look like different species at work.
Present Day Haiti and a country less than 2000km away is stark! but why? it's tempting and almost natural to look at the two groups of people and characterize these differences based on how different they look. The Haitians are black and the Americans are white. A little study of history shows that it's the institutions that matter. Since poverty is the default state of human existence. the question should then be... why did certain societies prosper and get rid of their poverty? INSTITUTIONS!! SOCIAL AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS. White people who have different types of these institutions end up differently. Different races that implement the same institutions end up in the same place.


I will argue that human beings and different races are inherently different. White people for example are by nature restless, more restless than us. The reason why they were called wazungus was because they came but could not stay in one place and they also had many questions, what is the name of that hill, what do you call this river where does this river come from.

Africans were puzzled, what do you mean where does this river come from, who cares, its always been here. You might think those were old time ignorant guys but I challenge you to try this, go outside right now and see how many trees, grasses, birds, insects and flowers you can name. I bet if you pick a random mzungu on the street they will probably have more information of this kind than a random African. A random African will however be more informed on things like politics or the procedure for marrying or funeral than the mzungu. It is quite normal for a Kenyan who has stayed in say the US for about 2 years to know more about US politics than an American who has lived there all his life but whose work does not involve politics. It is also quite common that a mzungu who has lived in Kenya for 2 years has traveled to more places and knows more about the Geography, plants, animals etc than most Kenyans who have lived here all their lives. We are just curious about different things.

If you go to a high end neighborhood that has both Africans and Wazungus there is very high likelihood that without meeting the people who live there you can tell which houses belong to wazungus simply by looking at the lawns, fences, hedges and gardens. We have different interests which means we take care of things differently.

Comparing Kenya to South Korea just by looking at GDP numbers is in my opinion rather shallow and myopic. It is like getting 2 people and measuring them by the amount of money in their pockets and then declaring that they are equal because they have the same amount of money. One guy is a chokora who has never gone to school puffs glue and collects and sells plastic bottles the other one is a university graduate who has fallen on hard times because his family has just been displaced by tribal clashes. They now both have 2,000 shillings in their pockets but that does not mean they are equal.

Korea is homogeneous. The country has a history as a nation going back 2000 years. The period that Kenyans like to site as Korea being equal to Kenya is the period after the Korean war in which about a million people died. After independence in 1963 many of the British with expertise in different fields were leaving Kenya (about 10,000 whites left in 1963) In South Korea after the war they were benefiting from expertise coming into the country with some Americans who had participated in the war staying and even more American companies investing.

The fact that Mzungu now behaves in that way does not mean it's 'his nature'. hardly 1000 years ago they used to be as myopic and insular as us. did this nature suddenly appear in their population genetically? it's all attitude. Competition between the kingdoms. China came to Africa before Wazungu but because it did not have competition - it did not cash in on it's might. Wazungu developed through competition and institutions. What you see is a fruit of a system of institutions and incentives in a society. Party politics in Africa determine whether "we eat" or not. so it's a bread and butter issue. in Europe - not really. The system and institutions point you to prioritize different things. incentives there drive people into this curiosity.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
hardwood
#38 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 11:23:41 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,486
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Kusadikika wrote:
I will argue that human beings and different races are inherently different. White people for example are by nature restless, more restless than us. The reason why they were called wazungus was because they came but could not stay in one place and they also had many questions, what is the name of that hill, what do you call this river where does this river come from.

Africans were puzzled, what do you mean where does this river come from, who cares, its always been here. You might think those were old time ignorant guys but I challenge you to try this, go outside right now and see how many trees, grasses, birds, insects and flowers you can name. I bet if you pick a random mzungu on the street they will probably have more information of this kind than a random African. A random African will however be more informed on things like politics or the procedure for marrying or funeral than the mzungu. It is quite normal for a Kenyan who has stayed in say the US for about 2 years to know more about US politics than an American who has lived there all his life but whose work does not involve politics. It is also quite common that a mzungu who has lived in Kenya for 2 years has traveled to more places and knows more about the Geography, plants, animals etc than most Kenyans who have lived here all their lives. We are just curious about different things.

If you go to a high end neighborhood that has both Africans and Wazungus there is very high likelihood that without meeting the people who live there you can tell which houses belong to wazungus simply by looking at the lawns, fences, hedges and gardens. We have different interests which means we take care of things differently.


You are very wrong in your assessment. The early mzungus were sent by the King of England via the Royal Geographical Society to come and map and study the new territory of British East Africa. The colonial office back in london needed to know what is happening in the territory to enable administration and management. They needed information and data on the peoples and the natural resources in the area. That is why they sent those msungus who would move all over the country asking for the names of rivers, hills, plants, animals, insects etc so that they could compile their reports and take them back to england. Some were anthropologists and would move around studying the culture of the various peoples.

Even during colonial times, 1890s-1963, the colonial civil service would employ all manner of professionals eg agriculturalists, veterinary officers, biologists, environmentalists, public health officers, foresters, anthropologists, economists, planners, social scientists, wildlife officers etc at district levels and these officers would also be on the move studying and managing resources, and working with communities in their districts as per their job description. They would move from village to village studying and monitoring what was happening.

Then there was another category, that is professors and post graduate students (Masters, PhD) in all fields who would come to kenya from Britain for their field research. They would move all over the villages studying and asking questions on plants, animals, lakes, fish, mountains, hills, local foods, local beer, local medicines etc. Some would even live within local communities to document local cultures such as foods, marriage ceremonies, initiations, death rituals etc etc.

We also had missionaries who had to understand the various peoples and their cultures and territories so that they could minister to them.

There were also leisure travelers ie tourists and big game hunters who would visit the parks, beaches and also villages to have a look at the local peoples and their cultural setting.

Even today organisations like UNEP, USAID, GTZ and other NGOs employ biologists, foresters, marine and lake experts, agriculturalists, rural development experts, doctors etc who still move around in those famous 4x4 visiting the country side and working with the communities and asking maswali mingi.

Thus the mzungu is not inherently different from us. He was and is still just doing the job he was sent to do in Africa.
hardwood
#39 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:04:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,486
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Kusadikika wrote:
If you go to a high end neighborhood that has both Africans and Wazungus there is very high likelihood that without meeting the people who live there you can tell which houses belong to wazungus simply by looking at the lawns, fences, hedges and gardens. We have different interests which means we take care of things differently.


I have to somehow agree with this because msungus take landscaping and gardening more seriously. Back in their countries you can be sued by the local council or even neigbours if your garden or front yard is unkempt. Note that they do not have concrete fences over there and so a neglected lawn or garden would be an eyesore to all.

Also note that many of the msungus sent to work in kenya would be middle level employees back home, who most likely can only afford to live in apartments back in london or new york. So when the NGO or embassy secures them "appropriate and secure housing" in nairobi, which is most likely a house in karen or runda which comes with a garden and a gardener, they enthusiastically venture into gardening and thus very well maintain their homes, lawns and gardens not just for their enjoyment but also to maintain standards expected by their employer who secured the housing for them. On the other hand the msungus next door neighbour, Kamau doesn't have a gardener and sees the lawn as a headache and a money pit, a place full of weeds and matope when it rains, reminding him of the village life in Tuthu, Muranga, so he plants maize or sukuma or puts cabro in the whole compound.
Kusadikika
#40 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:54:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,604
I think @Masukuma and @Hardwood and I are probably talking about the same thing but have been caught in the chicken and egg dilemma on what comes first. Are people different first which is why they create different cultures and institutions or are they all the same but different cultures and institutions make them different?

I happen to believe people are inherently different at the core. When Owago Onyiro says "Ujaluo itatumaliza" I believe there is a certain "Ujaluo" in Luos that is quite distinct from "Ukikuyu" in Kikuyus.

Check out this essay by George Orwell who tried to distill out the "U-englishness" of the English.

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_eye
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